It is hardly new news to say that witnesses are commonly very reluctant to come forward to testify in gang cases for fear of retaliation.
So what happens when the cops tell a gangster suspect that someone is ratting him out and even give the gangster the supposed witness’s name, offering him “proof” of the witness’s accusations? Then what if everything the cops have told and shown the gangster is a lie, a ruse, a trick? In other words, what if the witness never ID’d the guy at all and the police just made everything up hoping for a confession? ? If harm comes to that “witness,” who should bear moral and legal responsibility?
This morning’s LA Times has a well-researched story by Joel Rubin about the 2003 murder of a 16-year old girl named Martha Puebla. Vineland Boyz gang members allegedly killed her. And while that is tragic enough, what is worse is the way two LAPD homicide detectives callously marked Martha Puebla for her death.
I’m particularly familiar with the case because….. I broke the story in February 2007, nearly a year and a half ago,in an article for the LA Weekly.
The fateful and fatal sequence of events began in December 2002 when North Hollywood detectives Martin Pinner and Juan Rodriguez arrested Vineland Boyz gang member Jose Ledesma on suspicion of murdering another gang member, Christian Vargas.
According to trial transcripts, Detective Pinner told him that they had a witness against him, hoping to get Ledesma to confess. To further impress Ledesma with the seriousness of his predicament, Detective Pinner showed Ledesma a “six-pack” in which his photo had been circled. (“Six-pack” is police slang for a photographic version of a police lineup used to help witnesses identify a suspect.) According to the documents, the six-pack featured a handwritten note reading, “This is who shot my friend’s boyfriend.” The photo lineup was signed by Martha Puebla, a 16-year-old girl whom Ledesma knew.
But the purported evidence was phony. Puebla never circled Ledesma’s photo, or identified Ledesma as the shooter. While the police had indeed interviewed her, she was a “reluctant” witness who said little and didn’t want to come to court. The circled photo was what Pinner would later describe in court testimony as a “ruse.” But Ledesma didn’t know this when he called one of his homeboys from jail and told the gangster friend how he’d been identified. Nor was Puebla made aware by police of her fictional role in Ledesma’s case.
Word soon spread among the Vineland Boyz that Puebla was “throwing dimes,” as Ledesma put it. Snitching. Eventually, Ledesma learned that the six-pack was bogus, but by that time the rumors had a life of their own. On May 1, 2003, Puebla testified at Ledesma’s preliminary hearing but did not implicate the defendant in any way. Ten days later, Martha Puebla was shot to death in front of her parents’ home, presumably by some member of the Vineland Boyz.
Ledesma’s defense attorney, Marcia Morrissey, puts it another way. “To the detectives, Martha Puebla didn’t matter,” says Morrissey. “She was just another reluctant witness.”
What the officers did isn’t criminal. But, in my book it should be.
The above excerpt is from my Weekly article. Joel Rubin at the Times has even more.
The police were very wrong to expose the girl to danger, and they should be held accountable, at least in civil court. The gang members are very wrong for the murders and should be held accountable in criminal court.
So, where’s the focus here? You guys have become identified as friends of gang members and take sides with them. Where’s the outrage for the actual killers? If this were decades ago, you would say that Al Capone was a victim of law enforcement.
It just occurred to me: change the word “gangs” to “KKK” and see if you feel the same about the killers and might take a different slant.
Last year, in a federal plea deal to avoid the death penalty, Ledesma, Covarrubias and the gang member thought to be the gunman admitted to taking part in killing Puebla.
Was Capital Punishment a useful tool in this case? Would we ever have got a confession from these COLD HEARTED KILLERS (that should be swinging from a tree) without it?
Eleven days before she was killed, Puebla testified ….
Am I missing something – yes there was a recording (five months earlier), but then Puebla TESTIFIED, then Puebla is shot a few days later.
That article is an opinion piece. It says: “should have been obvious.” That’s an opinion.
Seems to me the blame here lies with the transcription company.
Woody Writes ….
Where’s the outrage for the actual killers?
Celeste writes ….
â€ÂThis morning’s LA Times has a well-researched story by Joel Rubin about the 2003 murder of a 16-year old girl named Martha Puebla. Vineland Boyz gang members “allegedly†killed her.â€Â
**************************
A another story about other murders and crimes “allegedly†committed by Vineland Boys gang members.
http://tinyurl.com/5vmxqe
http://tinyurl.com/64xx5j
Wood y don’t expect to read about the “allegedmurders of Jamiel Shaw and Cheryl Green by “allegedlyillegal alien gang members, and also don’t expect to read about Cheryl Green’s “alleged killer also murdering a witness by stabbing him over 80 times and slashing his throat ear to ear. But do expect to read about the LAPD harassing the innocent gang members of the 204st latino gang, who get along well with the surrounding black community.
And we should never ever execute anybody like Ruben “Night Owl†Castro because he safely locked away in prison where he is being a model prisoner and might even write poetry and reform himself just like Tookie Williams.
http://www.bloggernews.net/12123
http://tinyurl.com/3sqagf
Woody, where in your right mind do you think we’re not outraged by Ledesma’s crimes? Can you seriously read this blog everyday and not think Celeste, and the people who read it, arn’t horrified by gang violence? Isn’t outrage what drives this blog?
Ledesma’s in prison where he belongs. And the cops got off scot-free. That’s just fucked up.
Pokey read the rest of the sentence. She may have testified but she didn’t give up any information.
Perfect example of how the Times doesn’t cover its own backyard. Why wait a year before telling this story? Oh, I know, they probably didn’t have room with all the trend pieces from Bejing, Zaire and other far flung spots along the globe. Yeah, it was more important to break the story about how the Chinese sell fungus now than to expose bad police practices right here in LA.
Another story Celeste missed in today’s Los Angeles Times.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-immig2-2008jul02,0,1476174.story
Young illegal immigrants lose their San Francisco sanctuary.
The city can no longer escort them back home or send them to the Inland Empire.
Why wait so long before running this story, indeed, and right now, a day after the one about a couple of gang cops in Hollywood caught planning to fudge details of their written report on an arrest — where they followed the perp, who they knew to be a drug dealer in a gang, and had busted earlier only to see him released “for reasonable doubt,” into a familiar building. It took them upto 20 mins. to find the dope, but they claimed they saw the drop — BIG mistake, dumb, dumb, dumb, since that turned the scumbag into a hero.
He’s not only back on the street, but the Times’ slant on this couldn’t be worse for the LAPD, and a coup for the pro-Latino gang lobby and the ACLU. Comments on the Times blog tilt toward lynching the cops, some literally demanding a “hit,” while some sympathize that the cops feel so stymied by the system, they were driven to this.
All in all, something that deserve attention and a balanced discussion — but that’s not forthcoming, just a lynch-the- cops slant which has dutifully churned out a lynch mob of cop haters. And now THIS. Hmmmm, anyone see a pattern here?
Yeah, LR, loved that story on S F the Sanctuary City. After getting busted flying juvie illegal gangmembers back home to Honduras with law enforcement escort on board to pave their way, they started sending these illegal juvies (many of whom just claimed to be juvies, no one checked by design — guess if you look under 40, you can pass) to an unsecured home in San Bernardino, from where one whole group of 8 calmly walked away to continue replaying the U S for their asylum. Lots more had been educated and taken care of by the town much to their dismay — but they’d never been told these were illegals sent there in lieu of deportation. Now that gig’s up, too, and Newsom is blaiming it on his Sheriff’s “mistaken” belief that juvies couldn’t be deported. Uh-huh. Hmmm, what’s the pattern here? Oh yeah, he’s thinking of running for Gov. and jettisoning some of his Sanctuary City’s most felonious practices. The guy is Antonio’s Wet Dream: you can’t conjure up a less deserving opponent.
AC: “Woody, where in your right mind do you think we’re not outraged by Ledesma’s crimes?”
Who was the subject of attack in this post…of the linked Rubin article…of Celestes’s earlier article sub-titled “Ham-handed LAPD has trouble getting witnesses to talk in murder cases?” The police are always bad and gang members receive sympathy, even going to the extent of blaming bad judgment of the police on the killing rather than brutality of gang members.
I suspect that Celeste has a touch of leftist infection and is so concerned about seeking approval of gang members that she has lost her objectivity.
“It’s not the gangs, it’s the cops,” is the byline the Zell Times gives an otherwise reasonable editorial by retired Inglewood Sheriff Dan Milchovich. He tells both Baca and Bratton to grow up, stop acting like two prize fighters grappling over the buffet table, and just deal with the facts on street rather than the either/or terminology of race vs. gangs. Sounds reasonable, right? But the headline twists this advice into another Bash Law Enforcement Week addition.
Mr. Ledesma, who was just about to turn his life around. It’s an outrage he had to use a jail house pay phone to ask about the girl (como se llame) “M” well being. Why don’t the jail house detainees have their own cell phones for personal use. I am outraged at the brutal treatment of Mr. Ledesma, and the way detectives callously marked Martha Puebla for her death as Celeste and Joel Rubin write.
Mr. Ledesma should be released immediately and the cops should be in jail !!!!! Stop the LAPD from rail-roading innocent folks like Mr. Ledesma, the cops killed Martha Puebla !!!!
Chill out people. Can we not use the death of a 16 year old girl as another excuse to attack liberals.
Ah yes, another gangbanger “who was just about to turn his life around,” the catch-phrase of all bleeding-heart libs writing stories seeking to turn them into victims and heroes — whether it’s Celeste, in this blog, e.g. the recent post of the unfortunate kid who was left living in a shack next to a chicken coop when his parents, who’d come here illegally, absconded; whether it’s Rachel Uranga’s endless series lately in the Daily News; or now, this posting in the catch-up Times.
Another common variable: poor, uneducated parents, usually single mothers, who came here illegally from Mexico or Central America. But the gist of all this? Naturally, that our cops and law enforcement agencies are all evilly persecuting them, we’d be better off letting the gangbangers rule the streets themselves as they want, and we just aren’t spending enough on “programs” for these kids, because we are also selfish and evil. And guilty of human rights abuses! To think: “jail house detainees (do not) have their own cell phones for personal use. I am outraged…” !!!!!
Oh, give me a break. Do you people really need me to state explicitly that it’s vile, wrong, criminal for a gang member to kill a teenage girl he believes is ratting him out? I would have thought that’s something that does not exactly need stating. What is at issue here is the behavior of the officers. When it comes to murdering young women, we have laws that are pretty clear on that issue so I didn’t think that required a post.
Grow up, everyone. You’re picking a fight with a chimera.
As for “alleged,” when I posted last night at two in the damn morning, I did so somewhat quickly and was not sure if the gang members had been convicted of having had Martha Puebla killed so I inserted “alleged” because, absent a conviction, that’s the legally correct way to state it, my dears.
Again. Please grow up and please pick a fight that’s worth having. (Hmmmm. I can see that my blood sugar’s diving as this is irritating me more than it should. Must eat.) Okay. Carry on.
If she was hanging around with gang-bangers, it’s only matter of time until one of them killed or maimed her. The police weren’t thinking about her, but neither are her parents or their slime-ball lawyer. Did the police “callously mark her for death” or did her own unfortunate choices put her on that path? She wasn’t going to grow old in that neighborhood.
Rachel – what we know is- two members of the LAPD weren’t “thinking” about her, and they were subsequently removed from the case. Everything else you said is completely speculative, and completely unfounded. You have no idea what her parents thought of her, nor what her lawyer thought of her. Nor what anybody else thought of her, for that matter. And we definitely don’t know if she made, what we would consider, “unfortunate” choices or not, outside of her quite prudent choice not to rat on a know murderer in order to protect herself, which in in hindsight was a bit like Sophie’s Choice.. What we DO know is a 16 year old girl was murdered by thugs who’s actions were set in motion by the callousness of two police officers, and this is an absolute tragedy.
This entire thread is filled with people who think they can read minds, lets stick to what we actually know happened, and quit the arm chair psychology. Now rather than waste time questioning peoples motives, what can we do so this never happens again.
And by the way, I hold police officer to a high standard than gang bangers, I don’t know why I just do.
Celeste: “Do you people really need me to state explicitly that it’s vile, wrong, criminal for a gang member to kill a teenage girl he believes is ratting him out?”
I wouldn’t if you did it once in a while to let me know which side of law enforcement you prefer.
Also, I am so sick of overuse of the word “alleged.” It was never a big deal until the press wanted to attack President Nixon because he didn’t use the world “alleged” in reference to saying that Charles Manson was guilty–like some people actually thought clean-cut Charley was innocent. Now, it’s obligatory, even when a hundred witnesses see the murderer commit the crime. You could use alleged about anything; e.g. Celeste is an alleged journalist. Ban the word.
Oh, and I HATE it when a journalist refers to a killer as “the gentleman” who allegedly committed the mass murder. Gentlemen don’t go around cutting throats and murdering people.
We need a major effort to wipe out gangs like we have done with organized crime. Do you agree, Celeste? Get in line for your Tommy-gun.
“We need a major effort to wipe out gangs like we have done with organized crime. Do you agree, Celeste? Get in line for your Tommy-gun.”
What we really need is to spend lots of money on Hug-A-Thug programs for gang members, so Woody get busy. If only the gang members wrote more poetry the gang violence would end.
There once was a gang from L.A.
who laughed after killing all day.
The gang pursued mayhem.
The cops tried to stop them.
But journalists got in the way.
Blah, blah, blah.
(Good limerick though.)
Start a hug and poetry project for the police.
“Start a hug and poetry project for the police.”
I like it! However, as such a program may take some time to get up and running, what with the necessary grant writing, organization, outcomes analysis and all, in the interim—next Monday and Tuesday, to be exact—I’m going to do two days of just Police POV. (Not kidding about this, by the way.)
I’d put one of the posts up tomorrow, but I think everyone—including me—is going to be too deeply into 4th of July weekend mode to want to think seriously.
Woody,
I welcome hugs and poetry projects for the police 🙂 Here is a couplet by the famous and great Persian poet Hafez:
We have turned our face to the pearl lying on the ocean floor.
So why should we worry if this wobbly old boat keeps going or not?
Gorgeous.
I’m so glad that Hafez is getting better known in the US. (Now that Rumi has cleared the pathway a little.)
(As a matter of fact, I just gave The Angels Knocking at the Tavern Door to a friend for his birthday yesterday.)
Here’s what happened to a guy who started a hug-a-thug program, “urging a gentle approach to youth violence.”
“Danny Kruger bravely tried to stop a gang of hoodies stealing a scooter. But he ended with a gashed lip when the thugs fought back. “My main memory is the spit-filled mouth of the little rat-faced boy who punched me.”
What is your point?
I know this story is old but I just watched the movie on Netflix. I always knew growing up that the cops were instigating shit between the barrios. It should of been more obvious to us as it couldn’t be just a coincidence that every barrios worst enemy was the one that was closest to them. I remember how the cops would tell us that guys from the city right next to us said we weren’t shit just to start pedo. I even heard they crossed out our hood on the walls so that we would retaliate and eventually kill each other. Whenever there was a funeral I would see the cops laughing. They are dirty! I just wish we knew then what we know now. Never trust a cop! They’ll use you for what they need then do you dirty!
This articles response it nuts!!!! Especially by the caucasian aka white ppl responding; they have no clue to gang life or culture and yes it’s a culture whether you like it or not . This case took turns that shouldn’t of , blame the transcription company
( next time hire me in fluent in Spanglish and gang lingo ) blame the detectives for manifesting a story that got M.P. murdered . Overall if you ain’t live the life in the hood , you don’t know how it is, so while some comments are valid some dont have validity . Enough said
This ain’t about liberals or it’s political party ! You think gangs care about political status … their political status differs from your rant ….wtf….
Yes she was cause that’s what you do when your in the hood…. you do out as a “veterano” but people like you “white “ donr get it cuate your not CULTURALLY EDUCATED in gang life …..