CONTROVERSIAL LAPD CHIEF DARYL GATES DIES
He was the LAPD chief lots of us loved to hate, and was beloved by many of the rank and file. Whatever you thought of him, Gates affected Los Angeles in large ways. From his actions—or tragic lack thereof—following the Rodney King verdicts and his community-demonizing Big Blue Hammer policy, to his shaping of SWAT into an internationally respected model of the modern crisis management team, he left a mark.
For all my dislike of a list of his actions and policies, I find myself unexpectedly sorry that he’s gone.
The LA Times has a good obit.
GOLDMAN SACHS CHARGED WITH FRAUD BY THE SEC
I hope to heaven the previously spineless and incompetent SEC nails Goldmans’ sorry butt to as many legal walls as it can possibly find.
Yes, this news is causing the DOW to do something of a mini-cliff jump today. But these people—and many like them—knowingly and cynically put their own profits ahead of everything and the country has paid a terrible price. We are still paying it, as is evidenced by the newest California jobless figure, which has hit a new high at 12.5.
In short (literally), Goldman is being charged with creating a financial instrument, ABACUS 2007-AC1, at the request of a hedge fund manager, John Paulson, which sold a toxic group of mortgage-backed securities to investors while simultaneously placing big bets against that securities package, which Goldman and Paulson had selected specifically because of their strong likelihood of failure.
To get an overview of what the charges mean, read the NY Times article, the WSJ blog on a translation of the charges “for humans” and this WSJ report on one of the juicier Goldman emails to emerge today, plus my post from earlier this week about a nearly identical hedge fund strategy.
Here is the text of the SEC complaint.
Robert Khuzami, an SEC director of enforcement, has nicely summed up Goldman’s actions, the product was new and complex but the deception and conflicts old and simple.
Since obviously, this move by the SEC cannot help but aid the financial reform bill in congress, watch how, in the next ten minutes, if it hasn’t happened already, those opposed to financial reform will try to spin this SEC charge in some truly bizarre and creepy way.
[Gentlemen at Fox News, start your fact-free spin machines.]
In the meantime, read Stephen Gambel’s blog post over at Time Magazine in which Gamdel opines that the SEC news proves conclusively the rightness of Matt Taibbi’s 2009 contention that Goldman Sachs is actually….a VAMPIRE SQUID (wrapped around the face of humanity)!
(And, yes, in answer to your question, vampire squids are, by definition, social justice issues.)
You don’t wish death on anyone. Death is something that all of us are going to face, and of course, the worst experience we all truly have with death isn’t our own death, it’s the loss of those we love. And Daryl Gates certainly had loved ones. I’m quite certain he had children and even grandchildren, who he was nothing more than “grandpa” to. But, the same could be said of Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Ladin, and Dick Cheney. Does merely having loved ones absolve someone of a legacy of pure evil?
While Daryl Gates was an asset to racist and classist whites who sought to keep poor minorities away from their neighborhoods, he was little more than a terrorist to blacks, Latinos, and Southeast Asians who lived south of the 10 freeway and east of the 405.
I don’t see why I should view Gates’ death as any different from any evil dictator throughout history.
A strange guy Chief Gates, on the one hand I thought he was just another rehash of LAPD facist cop Chief Willian Parker.
Bad for a multicultural city like LA, a throwback to the time when the white power structure in LA gave the LAPD carte blanche to treat the blacks and Mexican Americans anyway they wanted to, brutal and murderous, acting with total impunity, protecting the white mid westerners who lived in LA.
On the other hand, Darryl Gates and his brother (sorry I can’t remember his name)grew up just a block away from my Mother, on Homer St in Montecito/Lincoln Hts. area. He went to Franklin High School and was an old long time friend to many of my Father and Mothers friends who loved him. I used to see Chief Gates (after he retired) at the Arroyo Seco Golf Driving Range all the time and bump into him jogging around the Monterey Hills Condos where he lived. He was a truly nice guy, always smiling, accessable to everyone, tanned and healthy looking, always with a joke or a good word.
I happened to be roofing his condo when the Rodney King trial and subsequent riots were going on, he had at least a half dozen detective squad cars and numerous black and white rollers around his condo all the time I was working there.
A very complicated person, a facist in his position as LAPD chief, but a down to earth good guy from the neighborhood as a citizen.
Weird!
I remember when the right wing zealots were calling Ted Kennedy a murderer after he died. The low road?
I wonder how Jewish people would respond to seeing Daryl Gates compared to Adolpf Hitler.
Trivialized?
Cheney as Hitler?
I guess that’s ok. I mean hey, the right wing wack jobs compare Obama to Hitler all the time. So I guess it’s ok that our side gives it back to them.
I guess it’s different when we do it because ” we are right and they are wrong”.
That’s just it, the right wingers comparing Obama to Hitler is just stupid and doesn’t make sense. You can ask Iraqis who’ve lost their entire families about Dick Cheney, though.
BTW, Celeste, I signed up for Netflix mainly to rent that Father Boyle movie, plus I had been meaning to sign up anyway because it’s the most logical way to rent movies anymore. Turns out, they really don’t have it. What those weasels do is basically list every movie in existence, then they have sort of a wish list button you hit if they don’t have the movie, and they make no promise of ever getting it. Then I found out that you can only stream a small percentage of their movies. Their ads are so misleading. Anyhow, whatever. I’ll probably buy the Father G movie.
Uh oh, as Eric Cartmen would say, I think I said something I shouldn’t have about the j-o-o-s. If we protected everyone’s sensitivities as much as we did theirs, there’d never be another race related incident.
Rob, that’s totally annoying. Oh, well. I looked on Amazon and they don’t have it either. If you do get it, I’ll be interested to hear what you think. I’m so close to the folks in it that I’m not terribly objective. John Bohm, the guy who made it, wasn’t really a filmmaker. He’s a long time elementary school teacher, and a good and smart guy. But after volunteering at Homeboy, he fell in love with the place and managed to raise the money to make the movie (much of which just came out of his own savings), and got all kinds of people to help—including Martin Sheen.
But he pulled it off. Let me know if you end up seeing it.
Here’s Felix Salmon on the Goldman case.
http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/04/16/goldmans-abacus-lies/
Great reg. Good link. Thanks.
Here’s the important ‘graph.
Just incredible.
So Rob’s an anti-semite as well as cop hater and someone absent shame, that was hard to figure out prior to what he posted here?
Only “annoying” his comment about the Jews Celeste? He’s no different than any other bigot that use other terms people would have a fit about here.
If a Jewish person were to have a problem with my comparing Daryl Gates to Hitler, they should talk to some residents of South Central who lived through Gates’ reign. It’s not about what he did, it’s about what he would have done could he have gotten away with it. Since slavery ended, we haven’t had an Americas as bad as Hitler, although the Bush Administration flirted with it. But it wasn’t for a lack of trying. It’s because we have too many people here who wouldn’t allow it. Too many good Americans wouldn’t allow Daryl Gates and the LADP to do to blacks and Latinos in South Central and East LA what they really wanted to do. So beating citizens in the shadow of the night is what they did, out of eyeshot…to they thought. That all changed with the advent of the video camera.
E-mails on illegal immigration are eye-opening
A deeper look at the facts contained in chain letters reveals hyperbole, exaggerations and misstatements by opponents.
By Hector Tobar
September 7, 2009
The e-mail that popped into my inbox started with an insult and included an attachment full of “facts.â€
After calling me a “crybaby†for writing a sympathetic story about Mexican immigrants, the sender insisted I read a series of statistics on the effects of illegal immigration on Los Angeles and California. Hospitals, law enforcement and other public services, he said, are being overwhelmed.
At first, because of the sender’s tone, I ignored the attachment. Then it arrived again, this time forwarded by a friendly reader. He didn’t believe the e-mail, he said, but wanted me to know that three friends had sent it to him. And 10 of its facts were said to have originated in this newspaper.
I started reading the chain letter, which carried the title “Just One State.†It asked me to forward its message to at least two other people. “If this doesn’t open your eyes,†it declared, “nothing will.â€
I’m all in favor of having my eyes opened — and then making sure my eyes don’t deceive me. So I took the 10 “stats†and focused a little light on them. I waded deep into The Times’ archive with the help of our librarian Scott Wilson, and made a few phone calls too.
What did I find? A stew made up for the most part of meaty exaggerations and spicy conjecture, mixed in with some giblets of truth. Two of the “stats†are the musings of a conservative op-ed writer. Another takes its information from a government “report†that is, in fact, a work of fiction.
The last two items on the list are the most accurate — but they reveal more about the prejudices and fears of the people passing the list along than they do about the supposed effect of “illegals.â€
Here they are, from 1 to 10:
1. “40% of all workers in L.A. County are working for cash and not paying taxes. . . . This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.â€
The source of this information seems to be a 2005 study by the Economic Roundtable on the informal economy in Los Angeles County. Its findings were reported in The Times and other papers.
But the chain-mail’s author more than doubled the figures in that study, which estimated that 15% of the county workforce was outside the regulated economy in 2004. Illegal immigrants getting paid in cash, it said, probably made up about 9% of the workforce.
A later Economic Roundtable report, by the way, credited immigrants with keeping the local economy from shrinking in the 1990s.
2. “95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens . . . “
We traced this “fact†to a 2004 op-ed in The Times by Heather Mac Donald of the conservative Manhattan Institute for Policy Research. Mac Donald said “officers†told her about the warrants. She conceded that there were no such data in official reports but suggested the LAPD “top brass†was hiding the truth.
I called the LAPD’s press office, which contacted the department’s Fugitive Warrant Section. Officers confirmed that the statistics in item No. 2 and No. 3, which follows, don’t exist.
3. “75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.â€
We traced this figure to something circulating on the Internet under the name “the 2006 (First Quarter) INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants.†The “report†contains similar figures for Phoenix, Albuquerque and other cities. But it isn’t an actual government document. The INS ceased to exist in 2003, after the Department of Homeland Security was created.
There’s something really disturbing about a work of fakery meant to tarnish an entire class of people. You wonder what kind of person would pen such a thing.
4. “Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.â€
Once again the “statistic†more than doubles the actual figures. According to a 2006 story in The Times, there were 41,240 Medi-Cal births to “undocumented women†in the county in 2004. They accounted for 27% of all births.
5. “Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.â€
This time the author more than triples the actual figure. Authorities project some 19,000 of the 172,000 inmates in the California prison system in the 2009-10 fiscal year will be illegal immigrants. That’s equivalent to 11%.
A study published last year by the nonpartisan Public Policy Institute of California actually found that U.S.-born men in California are 10 times more likely to be incarcerated than foreign-born men. You can take that statistic with as many grains of salt as you wish.
6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
This information apparently comes from a 1987 article in which The Times visited a sampling of properties across the county and looked for unauthorized garage conversions. The story concluded that 200,000 people lived in such dwellings.
The story made no effort, however, to determine immigration status. I’d like to point out that just living in an “illegal garage†doesn’t make you “an illegal.†You might just be a starving artist, or a guy who recently lost his job.
7. “The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.â€
This is another “fact†spun from the 2004 op-ed by Heather Mac Donald, whose article refers to a single Los Angeles gang and the conjecture of an unnamed federal prosecutor.
8. “Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.â€
Annie Kim, a spokeswoman for the Housing Authority of the city of Los Angeles, called this statement “an urban legend.â€
The source of the information may be an Associated Press report from earlier this year. It quoted a government study that found that 0.4% of residents of federally funded public housing are “ineligible noncitizens.†Half of those, or about 0.2% of the total, are illegal immigrants.
9. 21 radio stations in L. A. are Spanish speaking.
10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish.
These facts are close to the actual numbers, though the language figures are deceptive.
An annual census survey asks people if they “speak a language other than English at home.†According to the most recent report, 3.7 million county residents speak Spanish. But more than half of those Spanish speakers answered that they also speak English “very well.†Only one in 10 Spanish speakers said they don’t speak any English at all.
Obviously, the ability to speak a language other than English, or the desire to listen to Spanish music, doesn’t make you an illegal immigrant or a threat to U.S. democracy. It’s a slur against Los Angeles, really, to find these items on a list of “problems†caused by illegal immigration.
The authors of the chain e-mail and the phony government report fear what Los Angeles has become — a multilingual, multiethnic city with multicultural tastes.
They search for information to persuade others to be afraid, but the actual numbers don’t quite add up to the big monster they think is out there.
So they make the numbers bigger. Or they just make them up. And they spread them around until all that fear and anger turns into a big hate.
That’s what I saw when I let that e-mail open my eyes.
http://www.streetgangs.com/lies/illegal_090909
Classic Celeste. She would have something nice to say about Gates.
Marc Cooper was a lot less charitable. He quoted Hunter Thompson on Nixon’s funeral…nuff said. I won’t go there, but the Cooper link is to your right.
All the proof you’ll ever need that Gates was fucked up.
“President George H.W. Bush called him an ‘all-American hero.'”
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-daryl-gates17-2010apr17,0,829169,full.story
Hitler comparison not fair?
LA Times obit:
Critics considered him incapable of adapting to changing attitudes. He was forced to disband his special unit, the Public Disorder Intelligence Division, which conducted surveillance on “subversives,”political figures and LAPD bashers such as the American Civil Liberties Union.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-daryl-gates17-2010apr17,0,829169,full.story
SureFire – without getting in the middle of this, but since you apparently count on me for corrections, I think that Celeste’s “annoying” comment was directed at the fact that the Greg Boyle doc isn’t on Amazon.
She has yet to rain hellfire on Rob Thomas for his crimes against humanity. (And thanks for stepping in when Woody called me a “child molester” – that was very decent of you.)
SureFire, Reg is correct.
As for the wholesale demonizing of police (or of any other group), it really has no constructive place in the dialogue here.
Celeste, wholesale demonizing?
How about a verbatim quote?
Daryl Gates said that black people died from the choke hold because they’re not “normal”, as far as their biology and blood circulation is concerned. He also put together a special unit to harass his critics! Police, on your tax dollar, Celeste, being deployed to investigate citizens for criticizing the police, an authoritative branch of the government? Yes, that’s up Hitler’s alley. Could you imagine Obama putting together a department strictly to go after FoxNews? You’d better believe he’d be compared to Hitler.
Gates was scum.
Reg, whatever happened between you and Woody happened before I ever came on here, I’ve seen you guys go at it on the subject and that’s not a whole lot to go on. It’s all a bunch of he said she said type stuff.
By “what happened” I mean the original incident.
Rob, there is much awful stuff to criticize in Gates and his policies. I’ll have a post about that tomorrow.
However, making comparisons between American public figures (Gates or otherwise) and Adolf Hitler is—to put it mildly—proportionally inaccurate, whether it is the right or the left tossing the H word around.
There are world-changing, historic monsters who defy most comparisons. Hitler was one. Pol Pot was another. They wreaked murderous havoc not only on vast numbers of people, in war, but also on their own people, in the millions.
I would hope that we can all agree that there is a difference between bad police policy and….say…mass murder and genocide.
Let’s see, I post a story about citizens in a mexican town being held hostage by crimnals in mexico, who story is told in blogs and the Internet and it’s deleted.
And BTW the post was about the lack of traditional news coverage in some mexican town, i.e. on topic.
I guess I should have comapred the drug cartels to Hitler, because those comparisons aren’t deleted.
However, making comparisons between American public figures (Gates or otherwise) and Adolf Hitler is—to put it mildly—proportionally inaccurate, whether it is the right or the left tossing the H word around.
Celeste is exactly right. On both fronts.
#1. That IS putting it mildly. When the right engages in asinine comparisons such as this we aren’t so mild as to call it “proportionally innacurate”. We call them what they are, right wing wack jobs.
#2. It doesn’t matter who’s doing it. It qualifies them as a wack job.
As for the wholesale demonizing of police (or of any other group), it really has no constructive place in the dialogue here.
Not only does it not have a constructive place, it makes those who do it guilty of the same type of behavior that some on this blog vilify others for.
I would hope that we can all agree that there is a difference between bad police policy and….say…mass murder and genocide.
No, we can’t all agree on that. Not if some are intent on wholesale demonization of certain people or groups. To agree there is a difference is to admit that they are engaging in over the top smear tactics intended to inflame people to the point where they look at things from a purely emotional standpoint. It leaves logic, reason and intellect at the door.
RobThomas Says:
April 16th, 2010 at 1:47 pm
“That’s just it, the right wingers comparing Obama to Hitler is just stupid and doesn’t make sense.”
Rob is exactly right.
Then Rob says:
“You can ask Iraqis who’ve lost their entire families about Dick Cheney, though”.
Now Rob is going back to being a wack job. This is the type of unintellectual dishonesty some people love to engage in. To anybody who looks at that statement with any form of logic or reason, it is simply rhetoric intended to demonize. Why? Simply because:
You can ask A Jewish person who lost their families in concentration camps about Adolph Hitler. They’ll tell you the difference between Gates or Cheney and Hitler.
Or you can ask an Afghan who’ve lost their entire families to….oh wait, nevermind.
We don’t want to ask that. We are still at war in Afghanistan. And Iraq.
When the troop surge takes place and more blood is shed in Afghanistan, you might not want to ask certain Afghans this question.
Some people are so emotionally driven that they actually believe this:
Old war bad. Bush/Cheney = Hitler.
New war ok. Obama/Biden = good.
Incredible.
Celeste Fremon Says:
April 17th, 2010 at 12:34 am
Rob, there is much awful stuff to criticize in Gates and his policies. I’ll have a post about that tomorrow.
However, making comparisons between American public figures (Gates or otherwise) and Adolf Hitler is—to put it mildly—proportionally inaccurate, whether it is the right or the left tossing the H word around.
………………..
That’s your opinion, Celeste. Again, if you look at the things Gates TRIED to do. How do you think Hitler came into power? He didn’t do it over night. Gates was an open racist who tried to turn a police department, owned by the taxpayers, into his own military. He put together a unit to harass his critics. He put together a unit to combat FREE PRESS, Celeste. The Hitler resemblances with Daryl Gates are abundant. I’m sorry. I know the right wing in America has threatened people to not make Hitler comparisons when criticizing one of theirs, but I believe in free speech and if the shoe fits, wear it.
ATQ – I don’t want to go into everything you said there, because Hitler shit isn’t my thing. Dick Cheney was plenty reprehensible and WRONG about too many things for me to give his apologists a dodge by bringing Hitler into the mix.
But I do have to call bullshit on your “Old war-Bush/Cheney: Bad” – “New war-Obama/Biden:Good.”
That’s so transparently dishonest it reeks. I was a supporter of going into Aghanistan and taking out bin Laden when the incompetents/crackpots of the Bush Administration were (unfortunately) in charge and I was an opponent of the crazy Iraq invasion, partly because I saw it as a diversion from the war we actually were justified in fighting and needed to finish. Obama has consistently been a critic of a weak strategy in Afghanistan, which I agreed with, and was for getting out with reasonable dispatch, on the basis of agreements with the Iraqis, within a fairly short, non-chaotic timeline. I am giving Obama the benefit of the doubt on the current strategy because I think this crop of generals are pretty sharp and have proved themselves strategically (mostly by negotiating with the Sunni terrorists in Iraq, paying off warlords who were allied with al Qaeda and killing our troops, which – problematically but probably rationally given the level of incompetence and stupidity in the Bush White House – Petraeus did without telling Bush that was the plan, at least according to his interviews with Tom Ricks).
There is nothing inconsistent in my views on these wars, nor is there anything inconsistent in President Obama’s. That was a neat attempt at bait and switch, but it was total crap. You guys need to get your stories straight, not me.
“was for getting out” refers to Iraq – terrible sentences – sorry.
Incidentally, Afghanistan is the “old war” and Iraq was the “new war.” To support the “old” one – and wanting to repair a failed policy if at all possible before giving up on the place and just using drones to off “terrorist camps” – and oppose the “new” one was, frankly, the only rational, non-“emotional” (i.e. bogus WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION !!! – hysteria) position.
WTF, several people got a post or three deleted. You’re not the only one. In fact I think I deleted fewer of yours than of some. I may have whacked yours too quickly. It’s not an exact science.
But you tend to post a lot about the violence of the Mexican drug cartels, which are indeed wreaking havoc. It’s terrible. But I think you’ve made your point. I’m not sure what repeated comments about them accomplish. I post about the death of Daryl Gates and the civil charges against Goldman Sachs, you link to violence about drug cartels.
In any case, once I see a bar brawl starting or threatening to start, I start tossing people, willy-nilly, so to speak. It’s going to be like that until a civil tone has been firmly established here. I’m not picking on any one person.
Jessie Ventura was on Bill Maher last night, and talked about the violence in Mexico. He lives in Baja, a rural area way from electricity or pavement. He said most of the violence takes place near the border, and is all centered around the profitability of illegal drugs, which can be taken away by simply legalizing drugs. Thoughts, WTF?
Agreed, Celeste. A lot of posts were deleted. It’s just that ATQ and WTF whine about it the most. Nail that sticks out gets the hammer. My advice, face the fact that life isn’t fair, and grow up!
reg, my Dick Cheney comparison to Hitler is not based on what he accomplished, but more his intentions. Again, Hitler didn’t come into power overnight. It took him years. And he used “national security” and loyalty to his cause (i.e., patriotism, nationalism, ‘you’re either for us or against us’) to get people to support him, the same way Cheney and Bush did. These are not far fetched comparisons. They are balls on accurate. When has Obama ever used the threat of national security to get anything? When has he ever demanded a false sense of patriotism, using phrases like “for us or against us” to divide Americans? Simply put, he hasn’t. Ever. And never will. That’s why the Obama comparison to Hitler is stupid. It’s not because all comparisons to Hitler are stupid, it’s because with Obama there really isn’t one, where with Cheney and Gates, there are comparisons. Again, read about Gates special unit designed to investigate his department’s critics like the ACLU.
Rob, this sentence is just purely combative: “It’s just that ATQ and WTF whine about it the most.”
It isn’t in the least helpful. Both you and ATQ are particularly prone to that sort of thing.
If you removed that single sentence from the paragraph, you would still make the same point, but without taking the pugnacious swing.
The teacher in me would also like to point out that, purely from a compositional perspective, the paragraph reads better without that sentence.
Thanks in advance.
Got me, Celeste. I was giving them shit. It’s just that I have a history with these guys, and they have always used the “stop whining” approach to fend off any kind of rebuttal to their right wing points of view. So when I see them whining, it’s hard to hold my tongue.
No more drug cartel stories or stories which place mexicans in a bad light, I now understand that I need to post more comments about Nazi cops like Daryl Gates. I found this website CopWatch.com which is dedicated to exposing the Gestapo cops which are on the rise in Los Angeles and the country. We all know the Gestapo cops have done nothing to stop gang violence, just ask Father Boyle.
I wish marijuana were legalized, it would make coping with Nazi Cops, Robber Barons and racist AmeriKKKa, much easier.
I see I’m wasting my time explaning or asking nicely and respectfully.
WTF, I cut most of the anti-cop comments. And you then put up one more quarrelsome comment.
Rob, I ask you not to do that and you get in one more dig.
From now on I’ll just delete.
You can’t believe a poster whose hate stands out in almost everything he writes. When that’s their guiding voice it’s pretty easy to tell.
Saw Ramona Ripston’s remarks about Gate’s death. Even when Ali G pretty much “punked” him on his radio show Gates was all class. You can’t say that about people like Ripston who have no class at all, none.
When has Obama even “showed” a sense of patriotism, outside what’s expected of him, much less demanded a false sense of it? Obama is an elitist, learned his lessons from America haters, felons, other thug politicians and elitists. I’m not claiming he’s an America hater, but I certainly see him as patriotic only because the job demands it.
From what I read, if he appoints the next Supreme Court Justice from an Ivy League school it will make the entire court Ivy League. I find that, for all the talk we have in this country about how wonderful diversity is and how we should be so much more inclusive as a society, pretty damning. Again, not all his fault but he certainly wanted and got a Hispanic female confirmed, is that where diversity ends for him?
As reg mentioned, folks should check out Marc Cooper’s take on Gates:
http://marccooper.com/daryl-gates-permission-to-rot-in-hell-sir/
Not for the easily offended. Good stuff.
Ventura learned his political style in the WWF where everything is fake. Maher’s just another America hater, please.
Obama has been pretty consistent on the wars, not so in other areas, but that’s a given.
President Obama to the troops at Camp Lejeune,
Feb. 27th 2009
Next month will mark the sixth anniversary of the war in Iraq. By any measure, this has already been a long war. For the men and women of America’s armed forces – and for your families – this war has been one of the most extraordinary chapters of service in the history of our nation. You have endured tour after tour after tour of duty. You have known the dangers of combat and the lonely distance of loved ones. You have fought against tyranny and disorder. You have bled for your best friends and for unknown Iraqis. And you have borne an enormous burden for your fellow citizens, while extending a precious opportunity to the people of Iraq. Under tough circumstances, the men and women of the United States military have served with honor, and succeeded beyond any expectation.
reg, SPECIAL ATTN. to his statements:
You have fought against tyranny and disorder.
extending a precious opportunity to the people of Iraq. the men and women of the United States military have served with honor, and succeeded beyond any expectation.
Doesn’t sound to me like he thought it was fucked up to “fight against tyranny and disorder”. Doesn’t sound to me like he thought it was fucked up to “extend a precious oppurtunity to the people of Iraq”. I’ll just take him on his word that he thinks “the men and women of the United States military have served with honor, and succeeded beyond any expectation.”
Succeeded beyond any expectation. How does he make that statement if he thought it was fucked up for us to be there in the first place? Need more? No? You’re not buying it?
No matter. It’s there for everyone to see.
Lesson learned tonight? The lesson is that when we hate somebody or something so much it causes us to make foolish statements, we need to learn not to hate so much.
reg,
BTW, the old, worn out, tired, argument doesn’t fly either.
(i.e. bogus WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION !!! – hysteria) position.
President Clinton said Iraq/Hussein possessed WMD’s in 1998.
But the “Bush lied/people died” thing is catchy. And it did help get the man we voted for elected.
If you care to call bullshit on me re: Clinton saying this, go ahead. I’ll post his statements. Along with a few other people from our side. All prior to GWB saying Iraq had WMD’s.
Because I don’t like somebody, and don’t want them president, I don’t go off the deep end saying crazy hypocritical shit. And when others do, and I point it out, and then they call bullshit on me, well, then I’m left with little choice.
That’s so transparently dishonest it reeks.
No reg, it so transparently honest it hurts. President Obama is on record saying he approves of what’s taken place in Iraq. He thinks what we did in Iraq is a good thing.
Celeste,
If somebody is going to go post the following:
That’s so transparently dishonest it reeks.
and
That was a neat attempt at bait and switch, but it was total crap. You guys need to get your stories straight, not me.
I would appreciate the opportunity to respond in kind without such ardent conditions.
Where’s Obama’s “exit strategy” from Afghanistan, or is he like those other “Hitler’s” who were attacked over Iraq for that reason?
How does the Left explain why they were against Bush being in Iraq because no weapons of mass destruction were found but are perfectly fine with Obama doing nothing with Iran when they acutally have a nuclear weapons program well along?
Hmm, let’s see, here are the topics Celeste introduced:
1) Daryl Gates
2) Goldman Sachs
I don’t see anything about Obama, Hitler, the Iraq Wars, nuclear weapons, Mexican drug dealers, anti-Semitism, or cop-hating.
Have some respect for the blog (and 98% of the readers), and stop littering it with your inane squabbles.
I only viewed Daryl Gates from a great distance, but even that obscure view aligned him with the bigoted lead head cops of days past; Bull Connor is a terrific doppleganger for your deceased ex-chief. Maybe ol’ Bull is indoctrinating Daryl to the ways of his new enviros. Maybe not…
Just saw Woody’s #60… Holy shit, pal when will you folks end your insane lust for these expensive (dollars AND treasure) wars against sovereign countries who would be dealt with just as negotiably by other means? Our country seems to respond to “baiting” as sure as Surefire does to Rob’s. Sad that the results can’t be as harmless as this comment thread. You hawks need to rest your wings and use the good eyes Nature gave you. The planet’s gone to shit and all you want to promote is more upheaval. Sorry Tomas for going off topic.
Tomas, Rob said Gates was an “open racist” and it’s a remark that’s not only fueled by hate, it’s as ignorant as any remark you’ll find here. Of course this is the same guy who has claimed the entire current L.A.P.D. is Naziz.
That you can’t see cop hate here is based on your ability to look the other way when it’s posted, or your own bias.
Thank you, Tomas.
Sure Fire, Tomas was calling Rob out too. I have called Rob out. And I deleted 80 percent of those anti cop posts on this thread—AND I will keep deleting.
Please don’t just come in and pick a new fight. You can have a conversation—even an argument—without comments that are combative or accusatory. It’s become a habit here. You’re not the only one.
And ATQ, the answer is NO, if someone tosses one thing at you you do not get to serial post and throw 10 things back. You responded, that’s it. The rest are deleted. Last night’s serial posts and all but two of this morning’s both. This morning, after you responded to reg, you posted another seven times.
Listen, I take full responsibility. I allowed the comments section of this blog to devolve into non-stop fights. But that’s done. It’s open to discussion, not food fights. Disagreements, yes. Fights and serial posting, that is purely combative, no. And please know I’m not directing this at you personally.
ATQ – I hold the Dems responsible for some of the Iraq bullshit, but you can bet your ass neither Bill nor Hillary Clinton, nor Al Gore would have been so butt stupid as to invade Iraq in the wake of 9/11.
‘”Along with a few other people from our side…” I don’t give a pass to dishonest, political cowards among the Democrats. That’s one reason I didn’t want Hillary – her not opposing Bush on Iraq from Day One. I fucking knew the “WMD” argument was bullshit in terms of it being a national security threat to us – which is how the war was sold – although even I was surprised that they came up with absolutely nothing, that the plan for occupation was so absurdly incompetent and that the fingerprints Cheney’s boys in overt deceptions was so obvious. Reality turned out not just to prove my concerns to be correct, but it proved me to be somewhat naive as to just how crackpot the whole scheme actually was. Worse, even, than I thought.
And your characterization of Obama’s position on Iraq is bogus, to put it as civilly as possible. If you think the deaths of hundreds of thousands – probably close to a million Iraqis, unleashing of civil war, displacement of millions just to get a government in power in Baghdad that will be an ally if Iran over the long run – with the Sadrists as key player in the balance of poltiical power – was a matter of US national security and worth trillions of dollars and thousands of American lives – leaving the hell unleashed on Iraqi civilians and opportunity we gave al Qaeda – was justifiable, I really don’t know what to say. It defies any credibility. The notion that Saddam had an aresenal of “WMDs” (really a meaningless term, because it includes weapons we helped Saddam unleash during his war against Iran, passing him military intelligence under Reagan’s genius crew) that was even remotely a “clear and present danger” to the US, was absurd, or – in the case of too many Dems – an act of political cowardice in the wake of 9/11 hysteria. The invasion of Iraq was a disaster, the rationale was trumped up – there’s really no defense for the case that was made for invasion. Sorry. The whole story imploded, the “planning” turned out to be nothing but hubris and trust in bullshitters like Chalabi. What was “achieved” in Iraq – thanks to getting played by duplicitous assholes like Chalabi, who is now buddies with Tehran – was not even remotely worth our blood and treasure. This is pretty elementary stuff. The invasion was a swindle of the US electorate and the young folks who serve in our military and sacrificed. It also was insane strategically, given that we proceeded to take our eye off the ball in Afghanistan and the Pakistani border. I find it amazing that anyone would argue this weak shit, given what we’ve seen over the past seven years.
SureFire’s comments on Obama say more about Surefire than they do about Obama. Baseless and steeped in resentments, which is as civil a description as I can muster. This stuff can not simply stand with no response. If he can toss mud – not analysis or evidence of anything, but random mudslinging, he gets a bit of “civil” mud tossed back.
Also, there’s no contradiction between believing the military served honorably and wanting to see something come out of the policy shambles that was Bush’s Iraq war, but the notion that it was an intelligent – or honest – strategic decision just because Iraqis now have the opportunity to vote in corrupt elections for an Allawi, Maliki or Sadr is nuts. Here’s a bit of news – every time President Obama makes a proclamation about the service of our troops in a mess he’s decided to try to help clean up, he’s not including his complete analysis of what the best strategy would have been going back to 2002. To think so is childish, at best. Weak argument. (That’s my “civil” verdict.)
There are a whole slew of very shoddily constructed sentences above – hopefully the gist comes through.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I.m glad the serial posting will stop now !!!!
Oops, I meant to say “I’m glad”
I’m also glad Obama is keeping our troops in Afghanistan, and buying the Predator Drones used for dropping bombs on those damn Afghan killers.
The people Adelanto, CA need the high-paying jobs building preadator drones which keep us safe from an Afghan invasion.
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/466586/will_drones_make_general_atomics_the_next_blackwater
The anti-Iraq war folks thought they were getting the BHO that said the war mishandled from the beginning and we shouldn’t even be there. Instead, they got the hawk BHO. They got the hawk that drew support from McCain and Boehner, whiule Reid and Shumer disagreed and were left scratching their heads. LOL.
The anti-Iraq war folks are having trouble coming to terms with it. And they’re having trouble with people who don’t give him a pass for it. They can’t bring themselves to call bullshit on BHO where the Iraq war is concerned. LOL. That’s ok, I understand.
It doesn’t matter how many times, or how many words you use to weakly attempt to justify it. And you can’t get around the veracity of this question.
If we shouldn’t have been there in the first place, how in the hell do you justify us staying there after 01/20/09?
I used poor grammar and poor sentence structure also, but I think the gist comes thru indeed.
Scenario:
An LAPD cop LIES and says he knows there is cocaine in a house to obtain a search warrant. After they break the door down and enter the house, all hell breaks loose. Some innocents and some police officers are killed.
A stand off is created. The LAPD chief says; “We’ve determined that there is no cocaine in the house, and that the officer who obtained the search warrant was lying in order to obtain the warrant. But it’s already started, so we’re going to have SWAT enter the house and if they have to kill everybody in the house, so be it. It’s already started. We’ve got to clean it up”.
So who’s willing to give the chief a pass for that position?
LOL.
“Mulholland Terrace” at GriffithParkWayist.blogspot points out how weird Jim Newton’s editorial is about his relationship with Daryl Gates over the years. It says most about himself and his flaunting his power to make or break those he writes about, his own ego: he highlights Willie Williams but other more recent “subjects” come to mind. Gates is correct in his assessment of his biases, how he selects sources to further his pre-ordained point and not the other way around, etc. For all that’s wrong about Gates, even Newton admits he was steady and called them as he saw them, including that Newton – still the Times editorial pages “editor at large” who writes a lot of their columns, is “a first-class asshole.”
Gates is, however, wrong in his assessment of Chief Bratton and his ability to see, from an outsider’s point of view, that it was just as important to reform the dept. as it was to maintain loyalty of the rank and file. (Ironically, Newton notes that Gates didn’t think much of the union or Police Protective League — lately known widely as “Political League.” Something he was right about if their recent activity is an indication.)
SBL,
Thanks for the http://griffithparkwayist.blogspot.com/ reference. It’s interesting. I promised to re-post on Gates yesterday. It will still appear tonight, likely late.
Gares didn’t think much of the LAPD union? There are others on this blog that don’t like the LAPD union either.
Gates. I’m putting myself on probation re: spelling. LOL.
All you did was whine Reg, did you answer any of my questions? Of course you didn’t, but that’s what you do all the time. You call someone basically full of shit but answer nothing. If I were to go into all my problems with Obama it would be a very lengthy post. If you want me to I’d be more than happy but if all you’re going to do is do nothing but bitch about how I feel, what’s the point?
I save most of my political outbursts for another blog, my stuff here on Obama is mild. You far lefties go off the deep end whenever someone slams your boy as all you arrogant elitist types are the same, spare me.
Sure Fire,
This blog is not a good representation of the typical Obama voter. It is a good representation of the typical hardcore “Democrat no matter what”. There IS a difference. Everybody notices those who claim “it’s all the Republican’s fault” whenever anything comes up about politics. They can’t wait to criticize Bush, Cheney, and even Ronald Reagan lol. If you point out where Obama is screwing up, they immediately go back to badmouthing previous Republican administrations.
I voted for Obama, but I don’t give him a pass. I don’t use a Bush/Cheney argument every time somebody has an issue with what Obama is doing. Everything he does is not ok with me just because he’s “on my team”. From where I sit, because Bush was fucked up doesn’t make it okay for Obama to be fucked up. Anybody who thinks that’s ok is being intellectually dishonest. If that was the case, it would be ok for every president from now on to be fucked up. LOL.
Obama promised Americans that if they didn’t make over 250k a year their taxes wouldn’t go up a dime. That was a broken campaign promise. Hello Value Added Tax. All of our taxes are going up. For the rich folks, it’s down to 200k a year now, and the bar will soon be lower than that. He promised he would bring the troops home, and that is another broken campaign promise. Whether you agree with the war strategy or not, you can’t ignore the FACT that he broke his promise. To do so is to admit that it was never the war you were against, it was Bush. The term “faux outrage” has been used before on this blog. It has never applied more than to those who had a problem with the Iraq war prior to 01/20/09, but it’s been all good since. Complete phonies, using the blood of American soldiers to push a political agenda and get the guy on their team elected.
I’m not down with that.
Prior to the election, he said his main priority was J O B S. After elected, he made his main priority universal healthcare. Another broken promise.
reg and Rob can rant and rave all they want about Republicans and think that absolves Obama and the rest of the guys on our team from responsibility. The American people won’t buy it forever, as evidenced by the polls. The tactic of of every time we open our mouth we blame Bush is old and tired. We got to used to it. We took the easy way out. Now it’s backfiring. Now the American people want results, and they’re not getting them.
Obama got a record number of votes. His popularity is already below the 50% mark. Congress has the lowest approval ratings ever.
Don’t let reg and Rob’s resonsibility avoidance on behalf of any Democrat fool you into thinking the rest of us play that game. We don’t. That’s why the polls are where they are.
From Gallup…not a right wing hack org.
U.S. registered voters currently are closely divided on whether President Barack Obama deserves re-election, with 46% saying he does and 50% saying he does not
From a record number of votes to this. How does that happen?
I almost forgot this was about the Robber Barons at Goldman Sach, I hope they round-up the entire lot of Wall Street Robber-Barons, and air-drop them without parachutes of course onto Alcatraz Island.
More GS news:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_goldman_sachs_reputation
Didn’t Goldman Sachs get a bunch of money from the government recently?
“all you did was whine”
Look in the mirror. You’re lame.
You guys are weak and boring. Not worth my time.
ATQ – I got the Obama I supported from Day One. Your stuff here apparently makes you feel good, but it’s nonsense.
Just to be clear, in no way was I taken aback by Obama’s troop increases in Afghanistan – he campaigned on that, just as he campaigned on health care as one of his top priorities.
ATQ – you are truly “low information” which is why I don’t want to bother with your rants here. It’s like debating a child. Or SureFire…
“Your stuff here apparently makes you feel good, but it’s nonsense.”
LOL. I see you didn’t address any of my points, you just call it nonsense. I guess now you prove Sure Fire’s earlier assertion.
“he campaigned on that”
Not during the Democratic Campaign he didn’t. Ask the folks at Code Pink. By the way, if you feel we never should have been in Iraq, and he said since day one that he would continue to prosecute the war, why do you continue to bash Bush for the Iraq war? On that front, GWB just passed the baton to BHO and he carried on. Oops. LOL.
“just as he campaigned on health care as one of his top priorities.”
Nice effort to play semantics and avoid addressing what I said. I said Obama promised to make J O B S his TOP PRIORITY, not one on a list of a few. After he got elected, everything else, including J O B S took a backseat to healthcare. Healthcare was his TOP priority. There’s no debating that.
“you are truly “low informationâ€
That’s the kind of shit I’ve come to expect from you reg. If you can’t debate the points and present an intellectual argument, you just hurl insults. Juvenile to say the least.
“which is why I don’t want to bother with your rants”
No. You don’t want to bother because you’re not used to informed, intelligent debate. That isn’t your strong point, and you know it.
“It’s like debating a child.”
And you would know that how? Like I said, you’re not used to intelligent debate.
“Or SureFire…”
Never miss an opportunity to insult do you? That’s cool. We know. It’s ok. They can hear you tapping out in the back row.
From Bob Ostertag at the Huffington Post.
Goldman Sachs employees gave just shy of a million dollars to the Obama campaign, ranking second in contributions. Citigroup and JPMorgan ranked sixth and seventh. Goldman Sachs gave Obama four times more than they gave McCain.
This is one big fat ugly chicken that is coming home to roost.
TOPIC: Iraq
January 19, 2007
Obama’s Floor Statement on Bush’s Decision to Increase Troops in Iraq
I cannot in good conscience support this escalation. It is a policy which has already been tried and a policy which has failed. Just this morning, I had veterans of the Iraq war visit my office to explain to me that this surge concept is, in fact, no different from what we have repeatedly tried, but with 20,000 troops, we will not in any imaginable way be able to accomplish any new progress.
And then, after he wins the primary, he becomes the hawk. He continues the war. LOL. You can’t get around this.
BTW, compare this statement with his statement to the troops at Camp Lejeune three years later.
“You have succeeded beyond any expectation”.
LOL. Talk about a flip flop.
The information age is a bitch for people who like to say shit that is easy and politically correct. The info. is out there, and I’m glad to post it. Especially after being told I’m “low information”. LOL.
I wonder when it became day one for reg. Before or after the Democratic Primary. Must have been after if he supports the Iraq war. But if he supports the Iraq war, why the Bush bashing? Easy. Because Bush is such an easy target. And it’s sooooo fashionable.
reg,
Guess what. I support the president in Iraq AND Afghanistan. That’s right. Since day one I’ve thought we should be there. Even when Bush, who I didn’t vote for prosecuted the war. So of course I support President Obama when he carries on.
BUT,
I got called a lot of names for it prior to the election. I remember. I would point out to my fellow Democrats how many Democratic politicians voted for going to war, and then flip flopped when the going got tough. They turned it into a political talking point. Saying it was a failure, etc. BHO was one of those people. There it is above in his own words.
Guess what else reg. If you were over there fighting, hearing politicians say you were failing, and that nothing good could come from your efforts, you remember it. And you’re not willing to give them a pass. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t vote for him, it simply means the people who play that game SHOULD learn from it that it’s not helpful to the morale of the troops, OR THE NATION.
Good on you reg that you’re no longer one of the people saying shit like:
“No war for oil”
“Bush lied people died”
“The war is illegal”
“America is an occupying force”
That’s just a few of the slogans that the anti-war zealots were chanting at their protests. I’m glad the protests are no longer taking place. I’m glad the the “faux outrage” is gone.
The truly anti-war zealots like Code Pink are still against the war. I couldn’t disagree with them more, but I will give them credit for holding to their principles.
The people I have a beef with are the people who claim to support me, and then turn their back on me when it becomes politically expedient.
Sure Fire Says:
April 17th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
Saw Ramona Ripston’s remarks about Gate’s death. Even when Ali G pretty much “punked†him on his radio show Gates was all class
……..
Was the comment about blacks and the choke hold all class? Was his referring to blacks as abnormal when making that comment all class? How about the unit he put together to investigate his critics? All class? You have some definition of class.
Sure Fire Says:
April 17th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
When has Obama even “showed†a sense of patriotism, outside what’s expected of him, much less demanded a false sense of it? Obama is an elitist, learned his lessons from America haters, felons, other thug politicians and elitists. I’m not claiming he’s an America hater, but I certainly see him as patriotic only because the job demands it.
From what I read, if he appoints the next Supreme Court Justice from an Ivy League school it will make the entire court Ivy League. I find that, for all the talk we have in this country about how wonderful diversity is and how we should be so much more inclusive as a society, pretty damning. Again, not all his fault but he certainly wanted and got a Hispanic female confirmed, is that where diversity ends for him?
……………
Basically, you’ve taken every single hyperbolic, exaggerated criticism of Obama that you’ve overheard on AM radio shows and rolled them all into one comment. Good work.
Sure Fire Says:
April 17th, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Ventura learned his political style in the WWF where everything is fake
……………..
And Ronald Reagan’s acting roles were real?
ATQ, I voted for Bush, but I don’t give him a pass. I don’t use a Clinton or Obama argument every time somebody has an issue with what Bush did. Everything he does is not ok with me just because he’s “on my teamâ€. From where I sit, because Obama or Clinton were fucked up doesn’t make it okay for Bush to be fucked up. Anybody who thinks that’s ok is being intellectually dishonest. If that was the case, it would be ok for every president from now on to be fucked up. LOL
ATQ – your a master of creating straw men. Which is why I “don’t address your points” – they’re not “points.” Your “arguments” are hash. You haven’t addressed any of my “points” but I don’t really expect you to. You haven’t touched the only important issue re: Iraq – was there a national security threat to the US that required an invasion. Of course, there wasn’t.
And if you supported the invasion of Iraq, you had your head somewhere it shouldn’t be. That was totally ridiculous and not a very difficult call – assuming one wasn’t a political coward concerned mostly about saving their seat in Congress.
You make a lot of half-assed distorted jumbles of assertions that make it clear to me you’re not interested in anything other than blowing hard – you certainly don’t read other people’s comments and respond with anything worth my time. You help make this one of the worst comments threads I’ve ever read.
reg,
You accuse me of not addressing your point? LOL. Incredible. Have I not been addressing how if you believe we should never have invaded Iraq, why did we stay there after 01/20/09 and why I are we still there? There’s only about 10 posts addressing your point. Maybe you missed them.
Or maybe you just engage in convenient comprehension problems when your point is dissected thoroughly.
“Iraq – was there a national security threat to the US that required an invasion. Of course, there wasn’t.”
Apparently BHO does think Iraq was a threat to national security. Apparently he does think that the Al Qaeda presence in Iraq justified us going there, and STAYING there.
He said so. I posted his statements. His actions speak for themselves. And they speak LOUDER than anything you say, or he says. Actions speak louder than words pal.
But hey, nice effort again re: trying to make it look like you’re above the fray.
“You help make this one of the worst comments threads I’ve ever read.”
No. I make this a place where it’s not an echo chamber for a group of people with the same old worn out talking points. You’re not at a cocktail party with a bunch of your pseudo-intellectual friends who just wish to regurgitate what they heard from Keith Olberman prior to 01/20/09.
You learned to like that. It was your comfort zone. It made it sooooo easy to toe the party line. It’s sooooo fashionable.
But it’s intellectually dishonest.
Reg/ ATQ – you are truly “low information†which is why I don’t want to bother with your rants here. It’s like debating a child. Or SureFire…
—-
Reg is so arrogant it makes me ill. He has no class, no guts and when he doesn’t or can’t answer it’s always because someone is beneath him. King Reg can’t be bothered with the lesser people, he has more important things to do.
That’s how much of the country now looks at the left and at their poster boy Obama. They can’t stop themselves from coming off as people who believe their better than anyone else and everyone else better recognize that, ahut up and stay in their place. You know the place, the “new” back of the bus.
This “child” is battle tested Reg, and you’re just a hollow old man. You’re absent humility and full of an elitist mixed with causticmentality that is turning off the country and driving people away from your party. People like you, who support the thug president in such a truly nasty manner, are the best thing we have going for us.
Thanks.
Maybe I should let President Bill Clinton address your point in a statement from 1998.
Transcript: President Clinton explains Iraq strike
CLINTON: Good evening.
Earlier today, I ordered America’s armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq’s nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.
Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.
Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons.
**********************************************************
Oops. There he is saying Iraq had WMD’s and they were a threat to national security. As stupid as Bush is, he probably just took Clinton at his word.
Still not addressing your point? Yeah. Uh huh. Like I said, your point has been addressed and dissected.
reg,
You want me to post the whole statement from Clinton about Iraq having WMD’s? No? didn’t think so. Clinton is a Rhodes Scholar. Not an idiot like Bush.
Pretty inconvenient when you’re debating somebody who’s educated and has done their homework isn’t it? So you’re left with no other tactic than to make statements that represent yourself as above the fray. That’s HARDLY the case.
I suppose both of you sophisticated serious guys believe that there was compelling evidence that Iraq posed a threat to American national security that a pre-emptive invasion was absolutely essential.
That happens to be just about one of the dumbest propositions ever put forward by an American President. And if you think Bill or Hillary Clinton, John Kerry or Al Gore would have invaded Iraq in response to 9/11 – despite any statements about what weapons sytems Saddam may or may not have been seeking or any political cowardice shown by them in the face of Bush’s ginning up hysteria – you are simply ignorant.
No I don’t have time for you guys. Have fun jerking yourselves off.
The “Bill Clinton said it” defense – aside from the fact that it’s a dramatic shift of context – is proof of exactly nothing as regards a justification of a full-scale invasion/occupation of Iraq in 2003. It’s just totally dumb and unfounded – the problem you’re facing is that the case for the war imploded and you’re stuck waving with nothing but desperate, weak nonsense.
Enough. As for SureFire being “battle-tested”, you’re the fucking thug. Shove your “elitist” crap up your ass – you’ve lived your life courtesy of the tax-payer. Grow the fuck up.
Any asshole who just glibly calls the President a “thug” without even offering the bare bones of an argument as to why he thinks that kind of garbage rhetoric applies is beneath contempt. I don’t know what “battle” you’re tested in, but the harder you blow over the internet, the more it’s evident that you’re a bundle of ignorance and resentment. You’re as crazy as Michelle Bachmann and the rest, and – Yes! – I consider you beneath even minimal standards of anyone I would want to associate myself with and beneath my standards of anyone I would want to converse with on a regular basis. I talk to conservative people and have had a lot of friendly, calm rational disagreements – but you’re a hostile little shit living in TeaBag territory and, frankly, you guys are driving off a cliff. I don’t even think you’re going to make much hay in November, because you’re turning decent people off with the Palin-Bachmann-Tancredo “Gangster Goverment” “UnAmerican Obama” Crazy talk. So…uh…yeahl…thanks.
“Thug President” – you’re fucking insane.
Okay, headed off the rails here. Please pull back.
Thank you.
“the problem you’re facing is that the case for the war imploded and you’re stuck waving with nothing but desperate, weak nonsense.”
No. The problem you’re facing is you base your whole argument against GWB invading Iraq on the argument “Iraq wasn’t a national security threat nor did they have WMD’s.
Bush lied so we could go into Iraq”.
Then when I post what other people said about Iraq having WMD’s and being a national security threat, it makes you wince. You have no argument against it. You can’t say they never said it. It neuters your point that Bush lied so we could go into Iraq. It neuters your point that Bush was a fucking idiot to believe Iraq was a national security threat or had WMD’s. For as I’ve PROVED here, Bill Clinton was saying the exact same shit long before GWB ever said it. So did a lot of other people. So, if GWB was lying, they were lying too. And all the Democrats who voted for us to go to war in Iraq are a bunch of “war mongers” just like GWB.
You’re nothing but a Monday Morning Quarterback, and you base your analysis on political expediency and the very easy, very fashionable, position that Bush was either lying or a fucking idiot to believe what he did regarding Iraq.
The it gets proven to you that GWB wasn’t the only one who believed it, OR SAID IT, and you go right back to the juvenile bullshit “you can’t say Clinton or Gore would have invaded Iraq”. Of course I can’t, they weren’t the President at the time. LOL. Of course, you can’t say they wouldn’t have, because they weren’t the President. We’ll never know.
What we DO KNOW is that GWB wasn’t the first POTUS to say Iraq had WMD’s and was a threat to national security.
Now, again, there is no way around this. This is a FACT.
If Bush was a liar regarding Iraq’s WMD’s, so was Bill Clinton. If Bush was a fucking idiot to believe Iraq posed a national security threat, so was Bill Clinton.
LOL. No amount of pontification on your part can avoid that FACT.
“And if you think Bill or Hillary Clinton, John Kerry or Al Gore would have invaded Iraq in response to 9/11”
Well, what we DO KNOW is that both Hillary Clinton and John Kerry voted to give Bush the authority to go to war. LOL. Oops. As for Al Gore, we’ll never know how he would have voted. He didn’t vote.
“No I don’t have time for you guys. Have fun jerking yourselves off.”
No. What you don’t have time for is a logical, reasoned, intellectual rebuttal to your very simple minded, very flawed argument about why you believe we should have never been in Iraq. Of course, you feel you don’t feel you need to provide an answer as to why you’re okay with the current President’s policy of STAYING there and finishing the mission. By the way, you used the “O” word, you know, “occupation”…. so tell me, are we an “occupying” force currently? LOL. Oops.
You just rant and rave about how we never should have gone there in the first place.
bad war then….ok war now. LOL.
Have fun selling that bullshit to your PC pseudo-intellectual buddies. It won’t fly here.
I think that this is a new record for comments at this site, and that doesn’t include some comments firing back at reg that Celeste deleted, but, apparently, includes the profanity-filled ones that reg throws at others and that Celeste leaves alone. So, it’s also a record for double-standards.
Sorry Reg, you’re elitist and gigantic ego was made even clearer when you responded with…Yes! – I consider you beneath even minimal standards of anyone I would want to associate myself with and beneath my standards of anyone I would want to converse with on a regular basis
That being said, why would I attempt to present any type of argument to you? There’s plenty of evidence to what a liar the president is and how he sees himself as being way above the average American in every aspect. I’m just Joe Citizen and where I think Celeste’s post regarding the Last Emperor of the LAPD has its points, a good case could be made for Obama hoping and working towards being the Emperor of America.
Again, thanks for helping change the tide.
Sure Fire Says:
April 19th, 2010 at 8:11 am
Reg/ ATQ – you are truly “low information†which is why I don’t want to bother with your rants here. It’s like debating a child. Or SureFire…
—-
Reg is so arrogant it makes me ill. He has no class, no guts
…………………
And you’re just a walking ball of class. As far as guts go…you’re still yet to prove you’re a cop. All we need is a name. IF you had the guts, you’d give it.
Woody, I’ve deleted reg along with everyone else. Everyone is convinced that the other guy—whoever the other guy is—is being cut the most slack.
Also, if you expect the deleting process to be fair, don’t. Fairness takes more time than I’m willing to spend.
And reg, it would be helpful if—when you don’t think someone’s worth responding to, you actually don’t respond—instead of repeatedly telling whomever how unworthy of your time they are, so, thus deliberately upping the ante on the fight.
You can’t have it both ways.
You’re particular frustrating because you post a researched and coherent response, which people can agree or disagree with. But interesting stuff. Then, rather than step away from the keyboard at that point, you throw a spit ball or five.
It really is maddening. So I either have to edit you, which is really not part of my job description here, OR delete your whole comment (plus the understandably infuriated responses from those at whom you’ve aimed the spitballs), OR leave it up and thereby put up with a new flame war.
Please cut it out. (And, no, you don’t need to respond to SureFire’s response to your last mudball.)
ATQ, if you keep accusing Obama supporters of being pseudo-intellectuals, we might actually start believing that NONE of his critics are pseudo-intellectuals. Seriously. Keep up the good work.
Woody,
reg has political capital with Celeste. He’s a liberal. You’re not. Don’t expect the same treatment.
Where do I fit in? I’m one of the last remaining conservative Democrats. An endangered species. LOL. It’s obvious I’m on an island.
Both sides hate me.
ATQ, what issues would you consider yourself to be a Democrat on?
ATQ, there was another guy a couple of years ago insisting he was a Democrat after going on one right wing rant after another. I asked him what issues he was a Democrat on, and he never answered. Was that you? It was here, I think. Maybe at Gava’s blog. Whatever. Anyhow, I’d like to know just what issue you’re a Democrat on, because I haven’t seen one yet. What issues did you agree with Obama on, also? When he was running he talked about ending the Iraq War, so you couldn’t have agreed with him on that. What issues did you agree with OBama on?
Celeste, as I have mentioned before, you didn’t erase reg’s comment #19, which I countered but which you erased. And, you don’t need to pander to reg by saying that he posts “researched and coherent responses.” What I’ve seen from him are posts with such big holes that you can drive a truck through them. (That comes from football language, but as reg has said here before, “F* football!,” and that’s a typical response from him.) But, mainly, the comments from reg are typically profanities that could only come from a serial psycho.
“Both sides hate me.”
No, but you do need to reduce your “LOL” quotient. It’s akin to hearing my daughter’s friends saying “like” every third word.
OMG, I DO say it too much.
THANKS. Point taken.
“When he was running he talked about ending the Iraq War”
Now even Rob is debunking reg.
ATQ, why would tell people in here that you’re a Democrat? Do you think one single person in here buys that?
I got asked that same question.
Don’t feel bad. I was once a V.P. candidate a short 10 years ago. The tent is getting smaller. You have to toe the party line on all things or you’re kicked out of the tent.
Ok, so, ATQ says he’s a Democrat. When pressed on what issues he stands with Democrats on, he suddenly starts posting as other Democrats who really have no Democratic stance, on anything. Thank you for proving my point. But keep calling yourself a Democrat. It’s hilarious. The tent must still be big enough for people to jock the party and call themselves Democrats.
As a Democrat, I must say, I like the fact that so many people still call themselves Democrats. Believe me, that doesn’t hurt the party. As far as losing votes? The most recent presidential election isn’t an indication of it.
Joe Lieberman Says:
April 19th, 2010 at 8:43 pm
Don’t feel bad. I was once a V.P. candidate a short 10 years ago.
………….
A “short” 10 years ago…lol. We’re living in a complete different world from then.
Obama even got heckled at Boxer’s fund raiser tonight, too fucking funny. Wasn’t the Republicans doing it, if it were flat his ship would be sailing off the edge of the earth.
He got heckled by liberals at several rallies in ’08, when he was campaigning for president. Want me to remind you how that election turned out?
All that hope, all those promises and all that good will and now heckled by his own people. People can think what they want, he’s cutting his own throat.
“What’s-a behind me is not important”.
Franco- The Gumball Rally