THE LAPD OIS AND A VERY UPSET COMMUNITY
On Sunday about midday, some LAPD officers responded to a complaint near MacArthur Park and said they saw a man threatening people with a knife. LAPD spokespersons said that one of the officers told the man to drop the knife, when he did not and appeared to lunge toward officers, one officer shot the guy twice. The alleged knife-wielding man, a 37-year-old Guatemalan construction worker named Manuel Jamines, who is a father of three, died at the scene.
Some witnesses are now saying that Jamines, tdid not have a knife, or if he did. he did not pose a threat. Still others said Jamines was a habitual drunk and a nuisance, but not someone whom anyone considered dangerous. Residents also told reporters that Jamines didn’t speak English so, even if he had the knife (police say they recovered one at the scene), he would not have understood the command to drop it.
UPDATE: Police say that Jamines was given the command to drop the knife in English and Spanish.
Knife or no knife, a great many community members are deeply upset and say that the shooting was simply not necessary.
Robert Lopez, who has been covering the story for the LA Times, spent much of Labor Day reporting on the demonstration at 6th Street and Union Avenue, near the site of the shooting, where angry residents protested the shooting while LAPD cops in riot gear arrived to keep things calm.
Which brings us to the second story…..
AN LAPD LIEUTENANT MAKES THE CASE FOR A NEW LESS-THAN-LETHAL WEAPON
Also on Sunday, the Daily News ran an op ed by LAPD lieutenant Sunil Dutta of the LAPD, in which Dutta talks about a new technology that, had it been available, might have conceivably saved the life of Manuel Jamines, whether he had a knife or not.
Sunil Dutta is an officer whom I know to have exceptionally thoughtful and informed opinions when it comes to police matters. In his essay he tells about a contraption that he says the LA Sheriff’s Department is testing. It’s called an “assault intervention device”, that the LASD claims will “prevent inmate violence without incapacitating or injuring combatants.”
Dutta says that, although the ACLU has some legitimate concerns about the use—and possible misuse—of the device, which uses a “tight, focused beam of microwave energy” to cause “an unbearable sensation,” but if used properly, will not cause lasting physical harm.
It is nicknamed the “pain ray,” made by Raytheon, and reportedly the military declined to use it. (A slightly alarming sign.)
Dutta, however, calls the new LASD version “promising” and says that the focus should be on training that will prevent its misuse. In essence, he says, the good outweighs the potential bad,
Dutta writes:
Consider, for example, a suspect who is holding a gun to a hostage’s head. Currently, the only option available to resolve the situation is to use deadly force. However, the technology that uses a focused beam of sound could disable the suspect without firing a shot.
Which brings us back to Manuel Jamines:
Right now the device is way too big to fit in, say, a holster. But it’s still in the development phase. (And about to be tested on LA County jail inmates.)
So, if officers involved had possessed a kind of mini “pain ray” (which Raytheon says it is working on) would Jamines still be alive now?
One would like to think so.
This, in turn, brings up just one more point….
ARE BETTER EDUCATED COPS LESS LIKELY TO USE FORCE?
Zach Behrens from LAist reports about a new study on the issue:
A police officer with just a high school degree is more likely to use force — verbal threats, grabbing, handcuffing, throwing to the ground, shooting, etc. — on a suspect than an officer with some college education, a study in Police Quarterly has found. But results also concluded there’s no difference when it came to arrests or searches.
The same study noted that years on the job also tended to make officers less trigger-happy.
Here’s a link to the study itself.
UPDATE: CHIEF CHARLIE BECK GIVES A RUNDOWN ON WHAT HE KNOWS RE: THE JAMINES SHOOTING
The LA Times’ Joel Rubin attended the press conference given by LAPD Chief Charlie Beck regarding the shooting death of Manuel Jamines. The rest of the details are here and Beck promises a very thorough investigation. But on first bounce, this sounds like a tragic but technically righteous shooting.
Here’s a clip from Rubin’s article:
The officers rode to the corner of Sixth Street and Union Avenue, observing the man as he continued to threaten people with a knife, Beck said. They confronted him with their weapons drawn, ordering him repeatedly in English and Spanish to drop the knife, according to Beck. The man instead raised the knife over his head and advanced toward the officers, at which point one of the officers fired two rounds.
The man was pronounced dead at the scene. In response to a reporter’s question about whether the officers could have used nonlethal weapons to subdue the man, Beck said bicycle officers frequently do not carry with them the selection of beanbag rifles and other weapons found in a traditional patrol car. It was not immediately known whether the officers were equipped with Taser stun guns.
As with all officer-involved shootings and other serious uses of force, investigators from the department’s Force Investigation Division will spend the next several months investigating and re-creating the shooting, and compiling their findings into a report.
“A police officer with just a high school degree is more likely to use force — verbal threats, grabbing, handcuffing, throwing to the ground, shooting, etc. — on a suspect than an officer with some college education, a study in Police Quarterly has found. But results also concluded there’s no difference when it came to arrests or searches. ”
I’ll bet you that lesser educated police are more likely to whine about the public not supporting their unethical behavior, too. I’ll bet college educated cops understand the constitution better and just what their role as a peace officer and public servant is in our republic.
I wonder if that’s because most of the cops with college degrees end up in managerial positions after a relatively short time, while those without end up staying on the street for long periods of time. If a higher percentage of street cops only have a high school degree, of course the numbers will be skewed.
Just a thought.
I didn’t actually look at the study past a glance at its conclusions. Good question though. I wonder if they controlled for any of those variables.
Personally I wouldn’t make any conclusions until I knew that all things were equal from a starting baseline equasion. Until we know whether or not those variables were controlled the study means nothing. I do believe that it is a good basis for further study though.
I read the link to the study. Absolutely no mention of percentages of the cops on the street in the two cities studied with a high school diploma as compared to those with a college degree.
Until they take an equal amount of cops (and it would need to be a large number) from the two categories…working the same area…same shift…for the same amount of time… the study in and of itself means nothing.
I’m sure if you did a similar study regarding the military you would find out that most of the casualties inflicted on enemy combatants was inflicted by personnel without a college degree. Why? Because those are the personnel that predominantly make up the infantry.
The most violent officer I ever worked with had a masters, give me a break. The education level of an officer is over rated, always has been and always will be. It’s the man and not the degree, how he was raised and his internal workings. I couldn’t stand officers who would escalate situations and also those who sat back and did nothing letting situations get out of control.
I can pretty much say that I was at the higher level of use of force incidents as compared to others like me but never had a brutality complaint lodged against me. In the area of deadly force only one of my incidents resulted in a claim filed against my department and it never went to lawsuit.
People outside of law enforcement have no clue as to the job and as for Jamines, he was obviously his own worst enemy.
“and as for Jamines, he was obviously his own worst enemy.”
*******************
Alcohol was most likely his worst enemy.
I wonder if lesser educated people are more likely to whine about the police not supporting illegal behavior, and will also resort to calling cops Nazis?
I’ll bet intellectual people are more likely to support the cops than emotional people.
If we make it a requirement for cops to have a college degree, we better be prepared to pay them a lot more.
This whole dog and pony show has made me a bit ill. The news conference with the delegates from other countries ever take place when someone from one of their own piece of the planet has killed one of our officers? Of course not, and L.A. has turned into a cesspool thanks to people like the mayor and his cronies on the council who care more about their voter base, people’s skin color and just about everything else but the rule of law.
That they have to put on this “kiss the community ass” show is just another nail in the coffin of people simply being expected to be accountable for their own actions. Let’s instead play nicey-nicey with people shouting that didn’t even know the guy.
Ridiculous.
Answering The Question Says:
September 7th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
“I’ll bet intellectual people are more likely to support the cops than emotional people.”
>>>
Sure Fire Says:
September 7th, 2010 at 10:08 pm
This whole dog and pony show has made me a bit ill. The news conference with the delegates from other countries ever take place when someone from one of their own piece of the planet has killed one of our officers? Of course not, and L.A. has turned into a cesspool thanks to people like the mayor and his cronies on the council who care more about their voter base, people’s skin color and just about everything else but the rule of law.
That they have to put on this “kiss the community ass” show is just another nail in the coffin of people simply being expected to be accountable for their own actions. Let’s instead play nicey-nicey with people shouting that didn’t even know the guy.
Ridiculous.
Answering The Question Says:
September 7th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
If we make it a requirement for cops to have a college degree, we better be prepared to pay them a lot more.
……………….
What would be wrong with that?
Sure Fire Says:
September 7th, 2010 at 10:08 pm
This whole dog and pony show has made me a bit ill.
……………..
Really. Don’t people have anything better to do? A cop kills a citizen and all of a sudden the citizens want answers. God help us.
Sure Fire Says:
September 7th, 2010 at 6:42 pm
People outside of law enforcement have no clue as to the job
……………..
But thanks to you we now know there are a lot of violent officers who escalate situations, and that witnessing officers, like yourself, do not report these incidents.
Instead of the LAPD wasting time breaking up the demostrations by McArthur park, ICE agents should have brought over a few green buses to assist the oppressed demonstrators return home. It would also save of some of this money.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-illegal-welfare-20100906,0,3446997.story
“Welfare payments to children of illegal immigrants in Los Angeles County increased in July to $52 million, prompting renewed calls from one county supervisor to rein in public benefits to such families. The new figure represents an increase of $3.7 million from July 2009 and makes up 23% of all county welfare and food stamp assistance, according to county records.”
What would be wrong with that?
Nothing. I think that would be absolutely fantastic. Of course, the money would have to come from somewhere. What programs would have to be cut in order to get college graduates as cops and then pay them accordingly? Some of the current social programs or other city jobs would have to be cut in order to cover the cost. So should that happen I’m sure Off The Wall will be in here telling everybody how glad he is that LAPD officers make so much money and he has no problem that other people’s jobs or social programs were cut in order for them to be compensated so well.
Answering The Question Says:
September 7th, 2010 at 11:38 pm
…the money would have to come from somewhere.
……………………..
The rich. Let the rich pay for it. They have the most to lose if there are no police.
WTF Says:
September 7th, 2010 at 11:17 pm
Instead of the LAPD wasting time breaking up the demostrations by McArthur park, ICE agents should have brought over a few green buses to assist the oppressed demonstrators return home.
……………..
This is a capitalist country with practically zero regulation where labor is concerned anymore. We don’t ship cheap labor away. When are you going to start viewing the immigration issue realistically?
When was the last time you wanted an answer to a cop getting killed Rob? Is how this crowd acted, these assholes that don’t even know the guy, how cops should react when we’re the victim? When David March was murdered by an illegal scum felon who was bck here again should we have taken to the streets?
Yeah, I’m sure we would have had your support.
“I couldn’t stand officers who would escalate situations and also those who sat back and did nothing letting situations get out of control”.
By the way Rob, did I say how many escalations I saw or how I responded? Take your constant lies and shove them up your ass Rob as you’re obviously not smart enough to post without resorting to them.
Getting killed is a risk a police officer takes, Sure Fire. Being killed by a cop should not be something a citizen has to think about on a daily basis. But law enforcement in California has sure changed that, haven’t they?
The rich. Let the rich pay for it. They have the most to lose if there are no police.
Wrong. The rich can hire private security and bodyguards. The poor don’t have that luxury. Ever hear of Westec Security? Or the many others out there? They aren’t patrolling poor people’s neighborhoods.
Let the rich pay for it anyway.
Doesn’t look like it’s gonna work out that way.
Oh, it’s going to work out that way one way or another.
lol. You’s a baaaadddddd mamma jamma. Dream on.
Your politics are 1960. Your black slang is about 1983. I think you quoted Dirty Harry on another thread. Is there ANYTHING about you that’s modern?
I didn’t quote Dirty Harry. But you’re sure trying to sound like him with your tough talk.
See that? It’s a white towel coming from ATQ’s corner.
I found this video of “Off The Wall” who is actually Antoine Dodson.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MifYEyzjTjg
Rob is anything but tough. The bad ass really tough guys I’ve known from the wrong side of the law talk nothing like Rob.
“Being killed by a cop should not be something a citizen has to think about on a daily basis”. If that citizen is coming at a cop with a knife he should have had that thought run through his head at some point.
As Sherman Block once said, “I don’t pay my men to duel”. That was after a guy with a sword came after a dep and paid the price for it.
Sure Fire Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 4:03 pm
Rob is anything but tough. The bad ass really tough guys I’ve known from the wrong side of the law talk nothing like Rob.
……………
Ironically, they talk like you.
I’m quiet in person.
Rob better call Reg. He definitely needs some help. He’s getting beat like a rented mule.
Reg had a little bit of wit and could go toe to toe with the best of them.
Rob is simply embarassing himself.
“misleading facts”
“using facts to distort”
ROFLMAO.
Rob couldn’t win a junior high debate, much less one on this blog.
Answering the Question, nothing says tough like overusing sports analogies to summarize blog discussions. I can tell you were the stud on campus.