This report has has been updated, corrected and expanded as I got more information.
Sometimes everybody does everything right, and everybody loses anyway. Tragically so.
Such was the case with a ghastly stabbing murder and officer involved shooting that took place Wednesday night in a pleasant-looking pink apartment building located at 1344 Cochran Avenue, a little north of Pico Blvd.. and few blocks east of La Brea.
The sequence of events began around 5 p.m. on Wednesday when 30-year-old, Flor Medrano flagged down Wilshire division patrol officers outside her apartment building and told the officers that she had been threatened and assaulted by her former boyfriend. (A Wilshire detective told me earlier that Medrano was raped, but now that is not something police are confirming. In any case, she was attacked.) The attack took place on Tuesday, November 10, Medrano said. Now she was getting threatening text messages that suggested the man was coming back. She showed the messages to the officers.
Medrano, who was the mother of a three-year-old girl, said the man lived in Inglewood. Officers began investigating and tried to locate the ex-boyfriend with the help of the Inglewood police. But no luck.
While the officers continued to work the case, Medrano waited in the safety of the Wilshire police station on Venice Blvd., less than a mile from her apartment. While she waited, she got another text that suggested that the threatening ex was somewhere in or nearby to her home. Officers raced back to the Cochran apartment. But they found no sign of him.
At around 10 p.m., Medrano was sick of being stuck at the police station so told the officers that she wanted to go home. Officers offered to drive her to some other safer location, a domestic violence shelter or to the house of friend, if she had somewhere else she wanted to go. In the end, Medrano opted to go back to her place on Cochran. She explained to the officers that the guy did not have a key to her apartment and that her young daughter, from a previous relationship, was being safely cared for elsewhere.
As it would turn out, the decision was a fatally wrong one.
At around 10:45 pm, the officers followed Medrano to her residence and watched as she entered her door safely and locked it behind her. The two patrol officers remained outside in an unmarked police vehicle in the hope that they might spot the suspect and arrest him. From their position in the car, states a newly issued LAPD statement, the officer(s) had an unobstructed view of Medrano’s front door, which is the only doorway into the apartment.
In addition, the windows of the apartment were protected by vertical bars. Most of the windows, anyway. Unfortunately, there were not bars on all the windows. A tiny window in the woman’s bathroom was not protected.
It was through the small window that the attacker entered, sliding down, cat burglar-like from the 2-story apartment’s gently-pitched, shingled roof.
>At about 11:25 p.m., the officers called Medrano by phone to again verify her safety and to let her know that they were getting ready to leave. She picked up, but the cell phone call was suddenly cut off. They tried to call back several times. When someone finally picked up again, the officers heard screaming. The cops radioed for back-up, then ran up the stairs to the second story apartment.
According to police, the officers observed through a window that Medrano was being stabbed by the suspect.
Officers had to force their way through the woman’s locked door to get to the scene.
An unofficial law enforcement source said that, at first, the officers could not get a clear shot. They were afraid of hurting the woman. (I do not have a second confirmation for this.) By the time they did have the shot and fired, dropping the man, the attacker had stabbed her again.
Once the man was down, officers provided assistance to both Medrano and her attacker and called paramedics.
Both were transported to Cedars Sinai hospital where Medrano and her ex were each pronounced dead from their individual wounds wounds.
The always excellent Andrew Blankstein and LA Times colleagues, Baxter Holmes and My-Thuan Tran, have a report that they continue to update.
AN IMPORTANT NOTE: Initial reports were critical of the officers for allowing the attacker to slip by them, but as details have emerged during the day, it appears that officers did all they could. And yet a murderer got in anyway and tragedy occurred.
Like I said, everybody loses. Especially a now-motherless, three-year-old girl.
AND ONE MORE NOTE: The LAPD’s press statement, composed by Lt. John Romero of Media Relations, was unusually well written. It was not a Just-the-facts-ma’am statement, but a real narrative. Normally I don’t feel motivated to comment on the writing of a press release. This time I do.
Photo by Irfan Khan / Los Angeles Times
Terrible. Hopefully the girl was unharmed and has some one else who can care for her. Very sad.
They’re all sad, Mavis. Thanks for the coverage, Celeste
“Once the man was down, officers provided assistance to both Medrano and her attacker and called paramedics.”
*************************
Do you really beleive the LAPD would provide assistance to the attcker. We all know that corruption and racism is LAPD policy. If the attacker was latino you can be sure the xenophobic cops planted the gun on the “suspect” and then shot him.
Remember how the LAPD killed a young girl Suzie Pena while in the arms of her father. If the LAPD will shoot and kill a toddler, they will shoot any inocent person.
SNS, I assume you’re kidding.
Why would you even leave his post up Celeste? Have you any sense at all or is the hate filled rhetoric of a troll ok as long as it’s directed at cops and not your gangster pals?
Truly a pathetic response to an obvious asshole. Nice job Celeste.
OK Celeste, were going to have to send SF to a bar. He’s back to answering his own questions above. He’ll be up all nite if he doesn’t get a drink. Call him a taxi to take him to the Liqour Barn. SF was the Gatsby of his day in the LAPD, a shady relative who was tolerated so long as he was raking in the dough, then promptly cast out when he fell on hard times.
Easy come, easy go … Right SF ? ?
By the way sport, how’s your roommate situation?
Last I checked, Sure Fire, plenty of your hate filled, rhetorical jabs at gangsters were left up and not moderated. So, it’s a wash!
Sure Fire, Back off. You are way out of line.
I was the first out there with a take on this story that yanked it back from the original reporting elsewhere that erroneously made this the cops’ fault, which it wasn’t. Not at all.
I took a lot of time out of my day that I didn’t have in order to repeatedly call multiple sources until I could get the story straight—and get it up fast— because I felt it was important.
Now, fortunately the rest of the reporting—and the official disclosure coming from the department— is catching up to what I discovered—although a lot of TV outlets still have their facts wrong.
But your only response is to attack me. Get a fucking grip.
By the way, anyone can drop me a private note or a civilized post if they feel something is really offensive. SNS’s post is indeed offensive crap, but he is I believe impersonating an anti-police bigot the same way he/she impersonated other types a week or so ago with other screen names, which were some of the posts I deleted. It’s so absurdly broad and out there I let it go as I didn’t think it would be taken seriously. If he doesn’t dial it back I’ll start deleting again.
“(SNS)…but he is I believe impersonating an anti-police bigot the same way he/she impersonated other types a week or so ago with other screen names…”
Indubitably, Celeste. To give this blog a bad name, is his purpose. Cowardly. But more cowardly, that SF knew this before hand … And played the unknowing innocent blogger (amateurishly, by the way). This is just my opinion … Of course.
Saunders,
I agree with you about SNS, it’s a shame all the comments aren’t as inspirational and enlighting as yours. There used to be another culo around this blog but he left.
**************************
“were going to have to send SF to a bar. He’s back to answering his own questions above. He’ll be up all nite if he doesn’t get a drink”
“Please put your gun away Sure Fire … Your acting like your going to pee in your pants with excitement”
“OO OOH … Sure Grip is back from the bar … And not in a good mood either! now he’ll be sonofabitching everyone … hmm?”
“Why you an angry man Sure Grip?
K-k-k-a-n-t we all get along?”
Get a fucking grip yourself, it’s your fucking board and so you’re the one that gives the wink and nod to the hate filled bitch like posts of the trolls you let run wild when you don’t delete them. That’s on you Celeste not on me, and to prove the point every remark on this post but ours are trolls and the beat goes on.
Delete my posts whenever you feel the need.
Another fine whine…
“hate-filled bitch-like posts of the trolls”
Sure Fire Says:
November 11th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Reg is from Oakland, now I understand why he’s the way he is. He’s one of the countless cop hating racists that call that gutter town home.
It’s all clear to me now.
Sure Fire Says:
November 11th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
You work at Your Black Muslim Bakery Reg, or just a supporter?
Sure Fire Says:
November 12th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
…we’re a society full of leftist weaklings more dead and molested kids will keep being the order of the day while these elitist idiots pretend that they care.
You came in here with a bullshit, hate-mongering agenda and it reeks from nearly every one of your posts. Go fuck yourself, you self-pitying little shit. Your lack of professionalism and credibility speaking as someone allegedly representing career law enforcement is embarrassing.
You’ve admitted that in your job as a dope cop you accomplished exactly zilch. As if that would come as a surprise to anyone with half a brain. So fucking sorry you wasted years of your life. Now please do us a favor and don’t waste our time with your dumb-ass screeds where everyone’s an asshole except you. Here’s a tip: you’re an asshole. There are plenty of fine, smart people in law enforcement who could add something to a blog like this. You obviously can’t. I don’t hate cops. I hate creeps.
“hate-filled bitch?”
Look in the fucking mirror.
Thank you for putting as many of the facts on the post Celeste. I can imagine how those officers must feel. They had the heart to wait outside knowing that these suspects ultimately will come back. Who knew the idiot would go on the rooftop and down into the window. Sorry Celeste but Andrew and his cohorts at LA Times were spinning to make the officers look badly with a headline right after story broke that said, “LAPD probes how woman under police protection was slain with officers nearby.” WHY DIDN’T ANDREW STATE HOW THE SUSPECT GOT BY THE OFFICERS? This is why people have stopped reading the local papers and now turning to the internet for news. My e-mail box became filled with irate readers. This story will hopefully wake up some DV victims to get help and get away from the suspects they think love them and will not harm them.
Sure Fire Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 7:03 am
“That’s on you Celeste not on me, and to prove the point every remark on this post but ours are trolls and the beat goes on.”
………
Oh, hear that, guys? Everyone Sure Fire disagrees with is a “troll”. This isn’t even his blog!
About Andrew, he got it wrong at first, as nearly everyone did, and had put up that wrong-headed headline you’re talking about.
But, unlike nearly everyone else, he went in and changed that bad headline very early on—which most at the LA Times (or at most others papers) simply would not have done.
(Unfortunately, the old, archived version of the original stayed on line, over which he had no control.) But he did as much as was in his power to get it right, even though it may not have looked like it in the early stages.
I don’t know this from him, by the way, but from a police source. I’ve not talked to Andrew during this reporting.
It was really hard to get the right stuff at first, because everyone clamped down and wouldn’t talk. And all we knew is the the woman had made a complaint, and then had been stabbed with the cops outside her apartment in the unmarked.
I was lucky in that, I had a very good source early in the process, and asked some of the right questions. And then I had only to get someone else to confirm what I got from him. Six very frustrating phone calls later, I got a detective to just say if my individual facts were right or not.
(Meanwhile I was trying to line edit about 12,000 words worth of student papers for my class today. [insert sound of hysterical, sleep-deprived laughter])
But I promise you, Andrew’s one of the good guys. He really works his butt off and if he gets it wrong, he works hard to get it right—and makes the fix without trying to defend any early errors. A lot of others, not so much. As a consequence, he has terrific sources inside the department.
But I know how it looked at first, with that headline.
And thanks for the kind words, by the way.
If that was my handle, that young mom would still be alive…..promise.
The pseud. “Jack Dunphy” on Patterico’s Pontifications today complains that no one has reported on the fact that Medrano’s murderer/ ex-BF was an illigal who’d been deported less than a year ago for a felony, but surreptitiously returned since.
I find that “Dunphy” goes out of his way to find an illegal immigrant aspect to many issues where it seems partisan and over-reaching, and holds positions with which I strongly disagree, e.g., his on-going dispute w/Chf Bratton over interp of SO40 which I assume will extend to Beck, who’s said he holds pretty much the same view — that cops need the help and goodwill of all community members to catch criminals, and are just plain stretched too thin as it is (plus, using cops to do ICE’s work would raise issues of ALL of us getting “carded” without reason to avoid profiling only those “who look like they might be illegal,” like happens at airports, etc.) in this case it’s pertinent because, 1) he was a convicted felon who’d been deported for that reason, not some “average” angry ex; 2) you state that LAPD tried to locate him with help of the Inglewood police, based on Medrano’s stating he lived there but “had no luck,” which would follow from his returning illegally and living underground on fake ID – such criminals can much more easily disappear and be much more difficult to apprehend (before they may disappear back south of the border again as invisibly as they came). Therefore I actually agree with Dunphy’s point that those who blame LAPD need to look at other agencies and levels of government that were involved in this failure.
Run your mouth all you want Reg and make up shit as you go along (You’ve admitted that in your job as a dope cop you accomplished exactly zilch). Once you’ve decided a lie is the way to go the rest of anything you write can be tossed.
You’re a reprobate, nothing more needs to be addressed you spineless fraud.
We should never ever mention if a murderer is an illegal alien, we don’t want to offend any MALDER, LULAC, MECHA or members and never offend an illegal alien…oops “undocumented, expolited, honest, victimized, foreign visitor.
Hiya, Celeste, long time no see.
Wow, just the fact that someone like Suit Fire (er) thinks he can engage successfully in a battle of wits with Reg and the host is pretty damn funny.
Wow, spelled my name wrong.
Wow, two posts starting with `Wow’. That’s embarrassing.
SureFire – you said in one of your posts that no matter how many arrests you made, more druggies and dealers kept popping up and you didn’t make a dent. (Of course, I knew as much before you admitted it.) It’s not a lie. It’s what you yourself admitted. You may not like my interpretation, but I don’t see any other conclusion to draw from your own admission. The “war on drugs” is a dismal failure and will continue to be. Totally futile and counter-productive policy which has it’s greatest social benefit as a government jobs program for would-be law enforcement and prison guards.
poplockerone Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 11:10 am
If that was my handle, that young mom would still be alive…..promise.
………
Got to love the solidarity amongst police these days…LOL.
Hi Jim,
Great to see you over here. I’ve been enjoying your voice over at Cooper’s house.
WBC, Yeah, Jack Dunphy’s got at least one fact right. The guy had previously been deported. More than once, actually. Although that is not what this story is about and, as you said, Dunphy spins these things to suit his agenda.
A murderous, abusive, disturbed man is just that. It has zero to do with his immigration status.
I did not hear that he was a convicted felon. That may or may not be true. I don’t know. I can see one factual error already in Dunphy’s reporting, so his sources ain’t that good.
But, if he was deported as a consequence of a single felony conviction he would have been deported only after he’d served his time so, one way or the other, he’d have been walking the streets. (Here or somewhere else.)
If he’d returned multiple times and committed anything resembling a serious felony upon return, he’d NOT be walking the streets.
My guess is that, as usual, Dunphy has half the facts right and he filling in the rest from gossip and spin.
In any case, this guy’s immigration status is a red herring.
Doesn’t mean I didn’t accomplish anything Reg and your stretching those words to mean that is because that’s what you’d like them to mean. There’s not evena grain of truth in your interpretation. My whole time in law enforcement hasn’t been in dope, you know only a fraction of what I did.
I’ve yet to see a list of anything you’ve accomplished at any time so I’ll just consider the source and understand that it’s coming from a guy from Oakland where killing multiple cops in one day gets you a march.
I’m being fragged by a guy who can’t spell his own name, impressive.
Yeah Celeste, the central theme of the story wasn’t about the suspects imigration status, what would you expect from the L.A. Times? Of course if this illegal murdering piece of scum wasn’t here in the first place Flor Medrano would be alive, that escape you?
This happens constantly in our country, illegals murdering others and many times running back across the border and liberals simply could care less, to busy going to car washes I guess.
Whatever you do make this whole event about something other than the obvious.
“If he’d returned multiple times and committed anything resembling a serious felony upon return, he’d NOT be walking the streets.”
**********************
Of course everyone in jail has been caught for every crime they commit, every three-strike offender in jail was arrested and convicted for each and every crime.
Yeh, Sure Fire, Mexican immigrants introduced the concepts of rape and murder to the United States. Before Mexicans started sneaking across the border the minute Democrats took over the congress in ’06, the worst thing any American guy had done to a woman was hit her with a pillow. Glad we have a cop here to set us all straight. Speak truth to power, SF!
Nice try Robbie, but you’re leftist bs can never be taken seriously. This is why all left based talk radio has failed, when the facts get produced all you people can do is run away and try to be funny.
You’re a true idiot.
Only Sure Shit is posting on the 15th.
Get a life pal, and don’t take life so seriously … Your gonna fall dead some day with all this poison bubbling in your veins hombre enojado.
I have stalked the Robber Barons, Walter Moore, Mike Higby, Anonymousa, Woody and Mary Cummins and now I will stalk Sure Fire using as many goofy names as possible to elude detection.
D.Q.
Why are people posting comments on Sunday the 15th? Are there no footabll games or mexican restaurants serving menudo on Sundays?
26.RobThomas Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
poplockerone Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 11:10 am
If that was my handle, that young mom would still be alive…..promise.
………
Got to love the solidarity amongst police these days…LOL.
************************************************************
If that young mom was your mother or sister, you would be singing a different tune – you uncompassionate asswipe.
Andrew Blankstein of the Times is reporting the illegal felon aspect of the story just this afternoon. The killer was deported twice, most recently just this June for a felony; in 05 he was arrested for violent domestic battery of another woman. Sorry Celeste, but I have to disagree that his being an illegal who keeps coming back across the border is “a red herring.” When they come back illegally and live underground on fake ID, they’re much harder to find than someone legally licensed or traceable through legit SS# etc. If you look at the Daily News’ LAPD “Most Wanted” database, the vast majority of those wanted for hit and runs, are Latinos, probably many illegal. (Why I’d support some sort of 2nd-tier ID for them to drive, but of course that raises a whole other host of thorny issues.) In this case, that might have meant the difference between life and death, since LAPD couldn’t get a match from the Inglewood police. (Yes there may be other ways, like tracing to whom a cellphone is registered – IF that was to his own address; wonder where that led?)
Of course you’re right that women should just stay away from all bad men who have a repeat pattern of such behavior IF they know. I also wonder how she didn’t know EXACTLY where Medrano lived herself – she never visited his home? Knew any of his family or friends lived? Or worked – was he unemployed? Just way too trusting, at least for me to understand. (When it comes to me or my kids’ friends I want to know exactly where a person lives, works or goes to school, at a minimum, for a casual friend, but I know people go home with people they pick up in a bar etc. — NOT a good idea.)
I KNOW it’s a dicey thing to report illegal and criminal status in such cases, especially when someone was deported and returned so recently, because it spurs the public to launch into their “sanctuary City/ LAPD’s SO40 encourages illegal criminals” nonsense, when this aspect is a County, state and federal issue at root. But still.
WBC, You have a point. (I’m probably too tired and student-paper-centric right now to explain this well.) This may sound odd, but I think Andrew’s putting it out at the right time. He likely knew what I knew WHEN I knew it, as I know he was talking to the same source who told me. (Which was that the guy was undocumented and had been deported more than once. Didn’t know if there were criminal offenses at that time, or if so, what they were.)
But now he’s done the leg work to get the rest of the story, not just hang the illegal thing in mid air and send the anti-immigrant crowd into a frenzy. To me, this feels like responsible reporting.
It’s certainly a piece of the puzzle and perhaps “red herring” was the wrong way to say it. It isn’t the most important piece, but a piece that must be taken into account, nonetheless.
Unfortunately, the minute the word “illegal” is mentioned, it starts to breathe up all the air, which is irritating.
I saw it earlier on LA Now, and was planning to link to it in the day’s round up.
I agree with you about the IDs.
NOBODY IS ANTI-IMMIGRANT THAT I KNOW PERSONALLY OR HAVE EVER WORKED WITH CELESTE !!! THEY, LIKE I, ARE ANTI-ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION THAT WE SEE CLOSE UP EVERY DAY THAT RESULTS IN MORE CRIME, LESS MONEY FOR THOSE WHO NEED IT AND ARE CITIZENS OR LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. NOT ONLY ARE THESE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ATTEMPTING TO CHANGE THE COUNTRY AND CULTURE, WITH HELP FROM PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO WON’T EVEN CORRECTLY IDENTIFY WHAT THEY ARE, BUT DEMANDING WE DO IT!!!
WHEN PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO HAVE NAME RECOGNITION AND THIS TYPE OF A FORUM CAN’T EVEN CALL IT WHAT IT TRULY IS YOU BETRAY ALL THOSE VICTIMS OF THE VIOLENCE AND SOCIAL PROBLEMS BROUGHT TO US BY THOSE COMMING NOT WANTING TO ASSEMILATE OR FIND A BETTER LIFE, BUT TO VICTIMIZE!!!
GET A GRIP!!
Celeste, “it starts to breathe up all the air,” is perfect for why it’s so delicate an issue of to mention it or not, and when. (I note your current post which cuts no punches, but agree it may have been a matter of timing.) SF’s comment ALL IN CAPS concluding GET A GRIP! without a hint of irony is a case in point.
Next time you have to tell the parent of a young girl or boy that that they murdered by someone kicked out of the country more than once, or go to the funeral of afriend whose scum murderer ran off to Mexico after killing him you let me knoe how it felt WBC.
It feels terrible beyond anything you can imagine and you have no standing on the issue which puts you on the same level as Celeste.
Not one of you people have the balls to call a duck a damn duck, nothing but a bunch of latte drinking west side cowards.
“you have no standing on the issue which puts you on the same level as Celeste.”
Sure Fire, I’m going to say this as gently as I know how.
You have the right to talk about your own experiences that have shaped and informed your perspective.
You do not, however, have the right to talk about mine. (Or WBC’s, for that matter.)
You don’t know the first thing about the deaths I carry. Or the number. Or the circumstances. Or the depth of the heartbreak I’ve witnessed. Or the scars that remain.
How astonishing it is that you assume that you do—when even the barest bit of research would tell you otherwise.
Yeah I felt I might have stepped a bit to far on that Celeste so I apologize for that portion of my post.
You still won’t call a duck a duck however Celeste and since you’re smart enough to know the difference your waltzing your way around the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT status of offenders with words like this..But now he’s done the leg work to get the rest of the story, not just hang the illegal thing in mid air and send the anti-immigrant crowd into a frenzy….
is fraudulent and self righteous crap. Why is it so hard for you to just say what they are Celeste and what people like me are against, are you really that pc?
Better?
Sure Fire, thanks for the apology.
I think you’re misreading that sentence.
What I meant was that I’d heard that guy was illegal and had been deported twice, but I knew no other facts, and didn’t have that much verified. (It was told to me off the record.) So I didn’t dangle it out there as an unverified piece of political red meat without having the rest of the facts.
At that time, if you’ll remember, the killer’s name had not even been released.
I assume Andrew Blankstein had the same partial, unconfirmed information that I did as he is friendly with the same source slipped me that information. And he too chose not to print it until he could more fully report on the matter, which I think was the correct decision. His Monday afternoon story is the one I linked to early Tuesday morning.
Again, I think that was a responsible sequence of events. Nobody was hiding the matter, or trying to make it other than it was.
As you can see, I led the post with that story, and stated the matter in pretty plain terms. The guy had been deported twice and had been twice convicted of abuse.
By the way, we don’t know for sure if the guy was illegal in the sense you mean. I noticed he was 23 years old when he died, and his first conviction for spousal abuse was in 2005, which meant he was 18 or 19, pretty young.
I also noticed that the first conviction, while it got him jail time, did not get him deported. This means either: a) the LA County jail didn’t do its job and figure out his immigration status, thus he should have been reported, but wasn’t, OR b) he was a permanent legal resident—not illegal— and the lower level infraction didn’t trigger deportation.
However, his second conviction was more serious and he did two years—and was subsequently deported, at which time he came back (and was then illegal, obviously), got caught and was deported again.
Then he came back and stabbed to death the mother of a little girl.
I don’t see where I pulled any punches on this.
I’m not talking about pulling punches and your post is confusing (By the way paragraph). Again, I’m talking about this line and I’m not misreading anything.
—
But now he’s done the leg work to get the rest of the story, not just hang the illegal thing in mid air and send the anti-immigrant crowd into a frenzy
—
Anti-illegal immigrant crowd Celeste, not anti-immigrant. People like me wouldn’t make it a big deal if he was just a legal immigrant. You and people like you, for some insane reason think the “anti-illegal immigrant crowd all runs around with hoods and torches. My family has Whites, Hispanics and Persians at the core of it and all of us feel the same about the issue. You have to put in work to get here and reap the benefits of the country. I don’t think crossing the border illegally is work that counts.
You libs throw that bs “anti-immigrant” phrase out all the time and it’s nothing but a lie. It doesn’t matter when you found out what regarding his status; your description of this “crowd” is still simple elitist nonsense.
Oh, okay. I now get what you meant. Point taken. Clumsy and inaccurate word use. You’re quite right. For the record, it wasn’t purposeful. But it was indeed careless. Not okay. Words matter.