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What kind of people are we?
For the sake of the values we uphold in a civil society, we should let Susan Atkins go home and die from her brain cancer away from the prison cell she so richly deserved. No doubt that she and all the Manson disciples committed unthinkable, barbaric crimes. But do we really value life? How we allow the suffering Susan Atkins to spend her final days says, in the end, more about us than it does about this condemned killer and her monstrous acts.
Confused?
Take it away, Shakespeare. Portia, in The Merchant of Venice, describes the mysterious depths of mercy better than any real, modern-day lawyer as she pleads for Antonio’s life:
The quality of mercy is not strain’d,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
‘Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown;
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God’s
When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew,
Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much
To mitigate the justice of thy plea;
Which if thou follow, this strict court of Venice
Must needs give sentence ‘gainst the merchant there.
I agree on this one. With six months to live and ill, it’s foolish for one of the relatives to say that there’s “no pill” to cure one of being a sociopath. That may be, but she’s not a risk to society at this point, and was presumably drugged when she committed those murders. Sounds like the relatives could use a little emotional healing, too.
This is awful. Celeste makes us read long articles, but Alan makes us read Shakespeare.
“Fie upon thee thou beslubbering, toad-spotted maggot-pie.”
From Ye Olde Official Shakespearean Insult Kit
I have mixed emotions, but criminals–not our laws–are the ones who hurt their relatives with the consequences of their crimes. People contemplating crimes need to understand that their illegal acts not only affect the victims, but also make their families suffer. Leaving Atkins in jail may make this point for others. Also, jail is for more than curing sociopaths or removing their risk to society–it is about punishment.
I have to hear something more persuasive before I would agree that letting Atkins go home is best–and, such persuasion would have to be in standard American English.
Oops. Link corrected: From Ye Olde Official Shakespearean Insult Kit
i’d like to chop off her other leg and gag her with it!
may she burn in hell!
Alan not only lays Shakespeare on us, but the conflict between Old and New Testament versions of justice, with the New/ Christian tempered with mercy and Grace, as we sinners, at least in Protestantism, are saved by God’s Grace and not just by how we weigh in on the scales of justice/ goodness, or good deeds or “mitzvahs,” although we are called on to do them.
As Portia tells “the Jew,” “Though justice be thy plea, Consider this, That, in the course of justice, none of us Should see salvation: We all do pray for mercy; And that some prayer doth teach us all to render The deeds of mercy…” Portia’s right, we’d all be condemned to hell if judged without mercy and Divine Grace. The heinous crime of Susan Atkins is incomparable to the sin of Antonio, but this still raises two radically different approaches to “justice,” Old Testament Eye-for-an-Eye, or New Testament- style, let’s show our fellow human beings the sort of Grace we pray to receive ourselves. Woody, you sure exhibit an Old Testament view here, as do the relatives, and #4, Well…
This religious discussion is particularly apt since one of the victims’ relatives pleading no mercy for Atkins said something like: “If she’s really a Christian, as she claims, she should want to pay for her crime and serve out her sentence in jail, even until death…” But if Atkins has truly repented and asked for forgiveness, isn’t being Christian as much about forgiving as forgiveness?
Surely the penal system is about “punishment,” as Woody says, not a place to work through these religious debates. Still, doesn’t every religion, even Judaism, have room for mercy and forgiveness, as Portia asks? Depending on the situation? In this case, we have a woman terminally ill with brain cancer, who’s lost a leg, and besides being no threat to society, has spent decades in jail and surely suffered and had time to “repent her sins.” If even “the Jew” can open his heart in the cruel society he lives in, can’t we? (Medieval Venetian society being the origin of the word “ghetto:” Jews had to wear the star, and were locked in dusk to dawn; prohibited from higher education and professions, they resorted to “usury,” which was then condemned by the church and made them pariahs of necessity to survive. No wonder he’s mad and spiteful the time!)
As horrible as the crime she committed was, I believe we should allow her to be released to spend her final days with her supportive husband. Now why California allowed the main killer Charles Watson, who directed the other women’s actions, to not only avoid the death penalty, but then to wed and father 4 children while in prison, another words making 4 fatherless children when Sharon Tate’s baby was killed with only a few weeks until birth…well THAT was certainly a slap in the face to her family. That is the crime that California allowed him to commit. I do not believe the Tate-LaBianca murders would have happened if it wasn’t for him or at least not as successfully. He should have been executed and I think Susan and Leslie Van Houten should be released. As Patricia Krenwinkel was part of most of the murders, I beleive she still has time to serve, but even she should be released some day.
Quoting Bill S. is always a good choice.
WBC, I didn’t take a firm position, but said that I would need to see more before I could give her a get out of jail free card. For instance, did Atkins ever express remorse and ask for forgiveness?
While I wasn’t looking at the religious implications, there are differnt rules for government and Christianity. God offers us grace, but it is up to us to ask for forgiveness and accept it. And, forgiveness does not mean an escape from consequences.
Yes, I believe Atkins has expressed remorse and asked forgiveness, and those who see her in jail feel she’s genuine and done all she can from her end. From a prison pt of view, she’s not a potential risk to society or flight risk, with her terminal disease and family ties (curious how she nabbed a lawyer husband in jail, while many healthy women her age can’t manage it on the outside) and apparently has served enough time. So I think she’s okay on both counts. What strikes me the most, is how those who want to keep her in speak not from logic but from their own anger and bitterness, and her dying in jail won’t cure that.
I’m not emotional. I look at things like this from a purely rational basis.
I wasn’t talking about you (last sentence) but those who’ve spoken out against her release.
My Bible says that God expects you to give up your life if you take another. If she really found Jesus, her first move would have been to publicly confess that she should have been executed and ask for her death sentence to be reinstated. Of course California would not change her sentence back to the original sentence of death. But, it would have been a nice gesture on her part.
She has spent the last 38 years trying to squirm and worm her way out of jail in parole hearings. Her story changed with each hearing. But some things were consistent, for example this statement she made to Sharon Tate on early August 10, 1969:”Look bitch, I don’t care about you, I don’t care that you are having a baby. You are going to die and I don’t care anything about it.”
Susan Atkins is now dying, and no one should care anything about it.
ghrtt3 needs to keep reading past the Old Testament. But, when you look at the quote ghrttt3 provided from Atkins to Tate, one could easily conclude that Atkins is not human, and it does make one believe in demons. I didn’t know about that statement, and it’s shocking. At least animals don’t insult and taunt their prey before they kill them, and those killings are for food rather than pleasure. Beings who aren’t human shouldn’t expect to be treated humanely. Atkins should consider herself lucky that she isn’t already in Hell.
I hate seeming like an apologist for Atkins, which I’m not, but looking at the situation rationally, hwo does ghrrtt KNOW what she said? If the victims are deceasesd, this testimony came from one of the killers? From one of the others, trying to pin more of the blame on her to plea bargain? Source not given. (They were all drugged out and insane at the time.)
And, starting with “My Bible says,” no quotes or passages again, using the Bible to back up some sort of Old Testament vengeance, just creeps me out, as does #4 and some made by those passionate against her release. This brings out the most crude expressions of thirst for blood, for revenge, the sort of thing that’s kept the Middle East in a vicious cycle of revenge and retribution.
In our society we’ve just more or less sublimated the most overt expressions, but we saw it in the rhetoric of the elections, coming from pro-Obots against even Hillary, not just against Bush and the “evil” and “psychotic” Republicans; thank goodness these people don’t have the means to actually carry out their threats, or I’m sure they would.
She should be care for like any dying soul but should serve out her sentence and die in prison. A clergyman should be avaiable always and she should have contacts
She’ll be at peace dying as was decreed.
WBC – grtth3 is quoting a statement from Susan Atkins herself, although she apparently later tried to take it back:
“Atkins and the Grand Jury: Atkins testified before a Los Angeles Grand Jury, hoping to avoid the death penalty. She revealed how she held down Sharon Tate as she pleaded for her and the baby’s life. She recounted how she told Tate, “Look, bitch, I don’t care a thing about you. You’re going to die and there’s nothing you can do about it.” To cause more suffering, they held off killing Tate until all others were dead, and then stabbed her repeatedly while she called out for her mother. Atkins later recanted her testimony.”
I think she should serve out her sentence. As a Christian she should welcome the opportunity not to cause any more distress to the victims’ loved ones.
I am sorry when anyone suffers from disease…but I am also If you take the years she has spent in jail and divide by the people she murdered, she hasn’t served 10 years for each….come on people. THink. If this were your loved one how long would be long enough???? She was originally given the death sentence…then allowed to live…that was mercy. If she is a born again Christian then she will be at peace with whatever happens. By the way, I don’t think Charles Watson is any more or less guilty…they both inflicted wounds that led to the death of innocent people. Susan herself has testified to what she did…and said. Also, she lived 39 more years than her victims did. They, the murderers, have been allowed to marry, have children, go to college etc….that is mercy. Butchering people in their own home is an act that is unforgiveable…except by God- apparently she has asked for that. As for the drugs, she seems to remember a whole lot for someone “insane and on drugs” and it doesn’t excuse the act.
God Bless all families involved….but as far as mercy only God and those victims have the right to grant it.
Why is anyone using either the New or the Old Testament to justify their position?! Neither of these texts should matter in determining Atkins’ release. Stick to the law.
Locking someone in jail is not simply a deterrent to crime it is and should be a punitive measure. Susan Atkins showed no mercy to her victims. By allowing her to live instead of executing her in the same manner that she butchered her victims, our society has already shown her plenty of mercy. She deserves to spend every last moment of her life in prison.
If you really think she was so responsible and should spend all her life in prison, best we round up half the population of older Germans for playing some part in the holocaust. This is not the worst murderer out. Her worst act was to hold down a pregnant woman whilst another killed her, and do so while mentally disordered. The life she has lived since makes her my role model. Have you guys any idea how much selfless good work she has done. And this is work that she selected that specifically prevents youth going on to become killers or joining cults. Time moves forward. The healthful outcome is to release her and for victims to join the current century. I say this as someone whose own mother was murdered. This case has been so sensationalised and the victims so typecast and even glorified (for swearing not one family member would ever get released)they now can not back down or find a route to remove the negative energy and find some peace. Peace comes from not vilifying forever.
Two words, dearie: fuck, no.