As more and more bills come due—and not in a good way—from California’s nearly three decades of lock ’em up, prison-ballooning fever, a new Department of Justice report about the unintended cost of trying juveniles as adults, arrives at a propitious moment.
First a little history:
For the first three-quarters of the 20th century, in all but the most dire cases, kids under the age of 18 were tried and sentenced within a juvenile system. The primary governing concept of this strategy was based on the idea that children and adolescents were developmentally different than adults, that they were still forming psychologically and, as such, were less mindful of the consequences of their actions, and more malleable to transformation and reform.
It’s why juveniles can’t vote, enter into binding legal contracts, join the military, purchase tobacco or alcohol, nor can adults can’t have legal sex with them.
Then in the 1980’s when the rise in gang violence led to myth of a coming wave of super predator teenagers (which never arrived), states began passing a series of get tough laws that made it possible to try more and more kids as adults. The belief was that we could “scare” kids “straight.” All at once, the focus was no longer on the offender, but almost solely on the offense. California, as usual, led the way with the toughest laws of all, such as the STEP Act and Proposition 21.
Only one problem. It didn’t work. Every major study done in the last ten years has showed that the threat of adult incarceration has had no appreciable deterrent effect. And for those kids who are actually incarcerated, the strategy had precisely the opposite of its intended effect. In study after study, researchers found that juveniles who were transferred to adult prisons reoffended far more frequently than youth charged with the same crimes who were retained in the more rehabilitative juvenile system.
In addition, the transferred kids committed more serious crimes when they got out, than the equivalent non-transferred kids. (Researchers were also unsettled to note that kids in adult prisons were eight times more likely to commit suicide and five times more likely to be sexually assaulted than youths in juvenile facilities.)
Yet, this information has not even slightly dampened the incarceration infatuation that still governs California’s legal system, particularly when it comes to lawbreaking kids. In fact, a proposed statewide initiative, called the Runner Initiative will be on the ballot in November. If passed, it will—among other things—push for still more juveniles to be tried as adults. (I’ll blog more on Runner when the election is closer.)
Thus, it was encouraging when this month the DOJ’s Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention issued a brand new report that said what many of us have known for a long time—mainly that this broad brush Get Tough On Juveniles policy does more harm than good.
The report’s release triggered an editorial in yesterday’s NY Times. (At least it was in Wednesday’s paper although it appears to have gone online the night before.)
Here are a couple of relevant ‘graphs:
This country made a terrible mistake when it began routinely trying youthful offenders as adults. This get-tough approach was supposed to deter crime. But a growing number of government-financed studies have shown that minors prosecuted as adults commit more crimes — and are more likely to become career criminals — than ones processed through juvenile courts.
The value of specialized courts for young people is underscored in a new report from the Justice Department’s Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention. After evaluating the available research, it concludes that transferring juveniles for trial and sentencing to an adult criminal court has increased recidivism, especially among violent offenders, and has led many young people to a permanent life of crime….
Right you are. Welcome to California!
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PS: And, while we’re on the general subject, this morning’s LA Times has an appropriately sharp-tongued editorial about the little matter of the $8 billion prison health care problem (see post below): “Who’s to blame for the sorry state of California’s prisons — and the $8-billion bill?” asks the Times editorial board. Answer: “We all are.”
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Photo by Jean Hart Howard, New York Times Magazine
“…researchers found that juveniles who were transferred to adult prisons reoffended far more frequently than youth charged with the same crimes who were retained in the more rehabilitative juvenile system.”
I hate left-wing studies that “prove” what they set out to “prove,” rather than being open-minded. Did it occur to anyone that the kids transferred to adult prisons already were “rotten apples,” were sent to adult prisons for that reason, and would have reoffended anyway?
I guess we should let them vote, too. Democrats need youthful felons on the voter roles.
Uh, Woody, they controlled for that. (This is a sillier objection than usual. Surely you can do better.)
BTW, the report comes out of the Department of Justice—that would be George Bush’s DOJ.
C: Every major study done in the last ten years has showed that the threat of adult incarceration has had no appreciable deterrent effect.
Celeste, I hate to be cynical (you know me), but I take their “control” with a grain of salt. Would you mind referencing a couple of these “major studies” that properly “controlled” all factors?
Also, Bush’s DOJ is made up of the same bureaucratic hacks left over from other administrations. If the President could control “his” departments, then the Dept of Education would have been dissolved by Reagan and there would be no false “conclusions” today that polar bears are endangered.
And, what do you mean by “This is a sillier objection than usual.”? Are you not taking my comments seriously? I’m just trying to help you in lessons of logic.
BTW, is that the most representative picture that you could find of the thugs sent to adult prisons? Whenever you have sweet pictures of criminals holding poetry books, could you give equal time to their victims and show pictures of their tombstones?
Also, Bush’s DOJ is made up of the same bureaucratic hacks left over from other administrations.
So, why does that make everything they do, ipso facto biased?
Is someone here on crack or just spinning, spinning, spinning, like a spinning top, (apologies to Little Richard).
quote: Also, Bush’s DOJ is made up of the same bureaucratic hacks left over from other administrations.”
Huh? Wait a minute, can you form your mouth into a position to say the words Monica Goodling and D. Kyle Sampson?( You want a job? You attended school and got your degree at Liberty U like me? You got it. Wait a minute, whats this? your grandfather voted for Roosevelt? Sorry we’ll have to get back to you).
Can you possibly recall the episode of AG Alberto “I don’t remember” Gonzales trying his best to politicize the DOJ along with his and and Bush’s go to gal (And almost a Supreme Court Justice! Damn Liberals!)Harriet the Secretariat Miers?
Ever heard of the dancing and singing, yes man, John Ashcroft?
And on and on and on from the right wing Bush commisars!
Try keeping up with the news Woody.
Bush’s guys fired just a few federal attorneys, much to the faux outrage of Democrats who have done much worse. Clinton fired all of them except for one whose firing he withdrew as a favor. Don’t tell me that the DOJ and other departments and agencies aren’t full of lefties and conservative saboteurs left over from the past. That’s no spin. That’s the truth.
Now, where are those studies and a realistic photograph?
Don’t tell me that the DOJ and other departments and agencies aren’t full of lefties and conservative saboteurs left over from the past. That’s no spin. That’s the truth.
Prove it.
Donkey Ho-Tee aka Don BesaCulo is now on this blog looking for attention, the fool has no shame and has been nominated for Ass Clown on many blogs. Don BesaCulo aka old cholo fool, go back to the gang blog and talk to youself. lol
http://inthehat.blogspot.com/
How many whacky characters will Donkey Ho-Tee now bring to this blog? Will Santiago, Big Betty, Drinking With Tony be telling Donkey Ho-Tee what great comments he makes? lol
I’m not going to waste my time pointing out the inanities in Woody’s latest position on the DOJ. But thinking people who have looked the Dept over (guess that excludes you Woodster) have concluded that something was very rotten in the DOJ.
Did Clinton “Fire” all the USAs? Sure, like every other incomming administration he wanted to appoint his own. Sorry, nothing to se there.
Was there a pattern to the firings in the Bush/Gonzales DOJ? You bet! See David Igleseas for the details.
And those that weren’t fired? Ask Don Siegelman! Want to know why Rove is throwing the kitchen sink at Obama? Cause he doesn’t want to see what a “Club Fed” is like!
Yeah Woody start with David Iglesias the US Attorney in New Mexico who even though a loyal Republican was fired because he wouldn’t politicize his office by instigating a bogus criminal investigation of Democrats running for office. This even though Republican Senator Pete Domenici demanded it, and when Iglesias refused he was fired. Domenici then pissed backwards claiming he was going senile and wasn’t in charge of all his faculty’s.
Iglesia’s wrote a book on this usurping of blind justice for petty Bush party hacks, I suggest you read it Woody.
please don quixote don’t come ruin another blog with your bs we already now you from mayor sam’s your a lying racist that wants to let all illegal gangbangers off the hook.
Roy – Lets try to keep it civil. DQ may be racist, well actually he’s proved himself to be many times (I have the quotes). As for his capacity for “ruining a blog”, you give him way too much credit. He can be an annoyance, and the best course is to merely delete his comments.
I would agree just intuitively as a parent, that a kid, even one as young as 14, thrown in with adults who are much larger, savvier and scarier is going to be essentially their intern if he’s already inclined toward a life of crime, and that increases recidivism. Some of them allegedly even get released from prison with orders from Eme or other bosses to “prove themselves” by doing hits and crimes that juvies don’t usually get as much time for. That sounds like an argument FOR incarcerating them as adults so they can’t be used that way, but actually, if they’ve in juvie halls run like military bootcamps, that would seem to have the best rehabilitative effect.
However, there’s no doubt that if prisons in California weren’t 1/4 full of illegals and upto 1/3 by Baca’s own count, that would free up a whole lot of space and money for the programs for mentally ill and substance addicts this court order is trying to address. I hope Baca’s starting to ID illegal gangmembers at the beginning, not the end of their “stay” as guests of his prisons, will enable more of them to be deported. (Although without a national database, what’s to stop them from returning to the US via the revolving door, under an alias?)
The council today debated why they feel they need Hahn’s property tax for gang programs, and speakers noted this problem actually starts in elementary school (kids are hardened by middle school), while other parents noted those responsible are the parents. When they can’t keep track of their own kids under 13, and foist their delinquincy off on the schools and society, we have to start holding the parents accountable — instead of the other way around.
Above, I meant 1/3 illegal in L A County prisons, by Baca’s acount (a greater number than statewide). And if schools are 3/4 Latino, many kids of illegals, and the gang experts agree that schools are essentially a recruiting ground (with kids as young as 5 dissing their teachers with gang attitude, one woman said), and their parents aren’t controlling them even at that age, there’s no doubt parents should be more accountable.
Maybe we need to start incarcerating parents whose kids under 13 commit crimes that they’re oblivious to — if they suspect anything, they could ground them, put them in after-school programs until at least 5 p.m. if they work, anything. Isn’t that what the rest of us do with out kids, instead of letting them roam the streets and then blaming “society?” (Exceptions, of course, when kids are just hanging in front of their homes or walking to a market or in a park and getting shot — but that’s usually by other kids who aren’t supervised or young adults who were raised that way.)
Dr.WBC spouts,
Above, I meant 1/3 illegal in L A County prisons, by Baca’s acount (a greater number than statewide). And if schools are 3/4 Latino, many kids of illegals, and the gang experts agree that schools are essentially a recruiting ground (with kids as young as 5 dissing their teachers with gang attitude, one woman said),
Huh? Very unscientific racist babble WBC, “the gang experts agree?” “schools are essentially a recruiting ground”?
Where did these “scientific” opinions come from?
Maybe the size of the skull and bumps on the scalp should be on your racial and potential criminal facts agenda too.
Saaay Whaaat?
Please don’t feed the Jack Ass aka Don Quackers, he has been on many other blogs and proved himself to be a racist and a fool. Just ignore the racist fool and maybe he will go away, he was on Mayor Sam’s blog doing plenty of ass kissing before being botted off Mayor Sam’s blog, now he is here looking for attention, please don’t feed the racist monkey.
Ask Don Quackers about “Mayates”, he has plenty of comments telling us how blacks are lazy low down lazy monkeys. If he denies his comments we will post the links to his vitriol and xenophobic rants about blacks (mayates)
Boot the Jack Ass before he starts making comments about menudo enemas and AnonyMousa, Don Quackers is only qualified to tell B.S. stories about his abuelita and talk to himself, and his other dumb ass characters.
http://chanfles.com/blog/?p=888
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Hey there, new people who seem to have migrated over from ITH and/or Mayor Sam. Welcome. Delighted to have you.
But, if you’re going to fight and call each other names, how about if you do it around the issues rather than talking about past behavior on other blogs.
Thanks.
Thanks Mr Fremon, glad to have found your blogsite (from Joseph Mailanders “Streethassle” blog where he has you linked). I seem to have brought some “fans” with me, sorry, but in the name of fair play, civilized repartee and discussion, not to mention faith in democracy and triumph over facism, totalitarian doublespeak, and censorship I promise not to respond or engage in any personal netbanging no matter how ridiculous or racist these attacks might become.
The “experts” I quote are the very ones testifying before the Council today, chosen to get the money for the gang programs — that was made clear in my first post. Sometimes I tivo the sessions and fast forward to relevant parts or they’re online.
Celeste, many feel that this Don Quixote, Don Culu, Guava Joe etc. are all just alteregos of one person who posts and counters himself — to stir up controversy? Because he’s bored? You should monitor “his” activities, since one blog was allegedly shut down after getting dozens of these posts and the owner claimed some were too potentially libelous to allow on his blog, and he didn’t have time to edit them out.
Mums the word from me Celeste. Just the facts.
WBC, What Experts and what quotes? I didn’t see a thing.
Experts! Experts! I don’t have to show you no stinkin Experts!
http://tinyurl.com/5zv8cc
“A couple of times on this blog I have heard people say that the Chicanos created the Eme to protect themselves from the gavachos or mayates in the joint, thats bullshit, they created Eme not only for strenth but for business and control. A man like Truck never feared nobody,he was by far the baddest,toughest,motherfuckerI ever knew. He was always in shape even as he got older, him and my jefito used to do roadwork and train like boxer’s all the time. Once at the factory we worked at (he always had a job so as to look legitimate to LE), everyone was in the lunchroom eating and in comes this big Mayate who worked in shipping,and he starts talking shit about Mexicans this and they ain’t shit etc; and this was a big Mayate 6’4″, 275lbs. who used to carry a 100 lb. sack of produce under each arm. He didn’t notice Truck sitting at the end of the table peeling an apple with the straight razor he always carried. Anyway the Mayate looks his way and I can see the fear in this Suede’s eyes and Truck tells him real cool, “Hey you fucking nigger, you think your tough?â€Â
Damn that quote from Don Quixote was just getting good.
Don’t the new commenters make you appreciate me more?
You really want an answer to that?