It’s the biggest financial aide package since the GI Bill. In case you some how missed the news, on Friday, Congress passed a $20.9-billion program called the College Cost Reduction Act that would boost financial aid to students and drastically reduce interest payments on their loans. Every paper in the country has reported on the story, but here’s what this morning’s LA Times says.
“Students who enter certain public sector jobs would have their debts erased under the plan, the total cost of which would be offset by slashing government subsidies to lenders. It also calls for a $510-million investment in minority colleges.
The program would have particular impact in California,which has more recipients of low-income student grants than any other state. The bill’s increases to those Pell Grants are expected to benefit about 5.5 million needy students nationwide.”
NOTE: I’ll put up my final Voices from the Road post later in the weekend.
I thought that they were worried about the deficit.
Having been a former beneficiary of scholarships, grants, and low interest college loans I definitely support these types of programs. Not that I am semi-successful self-employed engineer who is taxed heavily by both the state of California and the federal government. I have been extorted to become an excellent return in the government’s investment in my college education. I have many siblings and cousins who also benefited from government grants and low interest student loans and now own their own businesses.
Back in the 70’s the tuition for California State Colleges and University was approximately $70.00 per quarter plus books. There were also Jr. Colleges with vocational training programs, my cousins learned a trade and took a few small business management classes and went from working out of a union hall to owning their own business. The $20.9 billion dollar amount is small percentage of what has been wasted on the War/Destruction of Iraq, not to mention the cost of lives.
Now we just have to stop greedy corporations and inept politicians from moving our factories to China and etc and outsourcing to India and etc. We also need to stop inept and corrupt politicians from negotiating the worst trade agreements possible for the American worker. The United States has managed to go from the leading consumer electronics manufacturer and designer to having virtually no consumer electronics manufactures. And unfortunately this story has been repeated in many industries.
Throwing in outsourcing to India is a bit incongruous, but I can say from experience that when you get reliable, college- educated people in India who work for a fraction of the price and are happy with that salary and benefits, which are very generous by Indian standards; and when a U S-educated and based programmer demands the sky in salary, can’t live near our business on the pricy westside because no way in hell is she worth that much or could we pay that much — AND this job provides stability for a worker and family in India, and helps the economy of a friendly country — it’s all win/win.
I only wish Mexico could do the same. If we could outsource there because they had the educated workers, instead of sending us their poorest (some 400,000/yr per a recent L A Daily News article) along with their rapidly multiyplying kids and related social problems, we’d ALL be better off.
Don’t blame the people who are doing something to help themselves, ask why the others aren’t.
I made my way through my undergraduate work with a Pell Grant – couldn’t ahve done it without it.
I’m taking the LA Times article into my classes tomorrow.
O/T but don’t look now. The Duncan/Blake suicides have madit to NEWSWEEK with a two page spread.
Maggie says…
Throwing in outsourcing to India is a bit incongruous, but I can say from experience that when you get reliable, college- educated people in India who work for a fraction of the price and are happy with that salary and benefits, which are very generous by Indian standards.
************
Many jobs are being outsourced to India not just the programmer who is demanding the “sky†in salary. Many lower wage jobs such as customer call centers have moved from the mid-west to Indian, and don’t forget about the poor 10year old Indian kid hand stitching leather footballs. Now when I call customer service of my cell phone company I get connected to someone in India. Even banks and finance companies are sending our loan applications to India to be processed, can you say “global identity theftâ€Â.
And our American corporations are not concerned with helping the poor people in other countries for example electronic circuit board manufactures from California move to Tijuana because they did not have to meet strict OSHA safety requirements when dealing with toluene. In Mexico the workers were given a 0.25 cent gas mask to protect them from toxic fumes of toluene. Battery manufacturers also moved to Tijuana from California because they can poison the environment and people in Mexico. So instead of investing in the equipment to handle these chemicals they just went to Mexico.
Immigration is not the only reasons we have social problems in Los Angeles, the other reason is a lack of decent jobs, not everybody is going to go to college and work in an office. Cities like Detroit became the crime capital after factories closed not because of poor immigrants. The Unites States is constantly losing manufacturing jobs and now even office jobs.
If you think we have social problems now what do you think will happen in the future as our middle-class shrinks due to our loss of decent jobs? We will be just like Mexico with a few very wealthy and millions living in poverty. Your average college graduate today can not afford to buy a house now, back in the 60’s -70’s a plumber, carpenter, and welder could buy a home and provide for his family.
L A Resident: You’re just supporting my argument that if Mexico weren’t a corrupt hell-hole that makes it impossible to do business there, companies would be setting up factories and outsourcing there instead. Your comment about ten-year-olds making carpets in India, and for that matter Egypt, Morocco and every other country they come from, is apples and oranges: importing merchandise from countries with low wages is another matter, and we’ve seen what can happen in China.
In general, you obviously have no idea what India is like today, or the conditions for the middle class. There are actually new, strict measures to protect the underclasses and the environment (the fact that the upper classes are bitching about them so much is a good sign). No one said our government or country is outsourcing there out of altruism, but if there’s a mutual benefit, so much the better. Every family employed is one more success story.
You can’t force people to pay exhorbitant wages to illiterate workers, when an educated and disciplined and motivated workforce, in a country which ensures private property, is willing to do the same for less. A bunch of illiterate illegals coming HERE because Mexico refuses to educate them and clear out its own corruption is costing our city billions in infrastructure and educational costs, that are driving up the costs of the middle class — and driving, or have driven them, out to cheaper areas free of Third- World blight. The Mexicans and Central Americans who come here are so woefully uneducated and lacking in ability to be educated by comparison.
A story from another sector: a friend who produces films and is of partial Mexican descent made a movie down there with the best of intentions, to help stimulate the economy. (Indigenous Mexican directors of late have shown what their artistic/ intellectual “elites” can do, too.) But the budget which on paper looked so attractive mushroomed and mushroomed with all the bribes and payola and obstructionism not to mention, theft. When the company stopped paying every single person and union involved the “protection” money they demanded, a master film reel they were shipping to the U. S. mysteriously disappeared, another was ruined. They had to start personally flying everything of value back to the U. S. on their persons. Many others have experienced similar horror stories in the film business, and in virtually every business for that matter. And, of course, bigotry and racism in Mexico against Guatemalans, Salvadorans or others from countries poorer and even more corrupt than their own, is truly disgraceful.
The solution to middle class problems is NOT to blame the hard-working people to whom work is outsourced, but to ask why there aren’t more qualified people here and in Mexico.
AND with immigration from Mexico and Central America cut to the levels allowed from other countries, and immigration of more educated populations from those countries allowed, the middle class will benefit from a more solid and vibrant economy here in the U. S.
If you travel around the world and get a perspective outside of this hothouse and twisted one in California, things seem very different.
Maggie,
I’m not sure how you got to the point/debate, of corruption in Mexico and our outsourcing of jobs. I just said we will be like Mexico with a small middle class if we keep giving away our jobs.
I have traveled quite a bit especially to Mexico and Central and South America, and I very familiar with the people and government of many of these areas. I have been to many of the factories I have mentioned, which are still exploiting foreign workers. I also travel once a year with a church group to help in the design and building of schools in Central America. I have never blamed the poor people of other countries for the U.S. companies outsourcing our work. I said it was the fault of inept and corrupt politicians negotiating lousy trade agreements with countries like China, and greedy corporations trying to maximize profits at the expense of American workers.
But I would still disagree with the statement that we do not have enough qualified people in this country to do many of the jobs we are outsourcing. The main reason for outsourcing is to maximize corporate profits. We do not have a shortage of skilled or non-skilled workers, if that were the case we would have much lower unemployment rate. I have worked with many engineers from other countries who are working here with an H1B visa, they were not better engineers than the American engineers they were cheaper engineers, that is the only reason they were brought here. When we really have a shortage of workers we should provide training to the American workers.
Of course there will always be some lazy people but that isn’t the main reason we continually have an increase in outsourcing. And I have worked at places like Kaiser Steel where the union helped put the company out of business with it employee abuses. But you don’t drown your whole family because of one problem child.
The United States was the world leader in technology development, third world countries like India, Taiwan and China stole much of the United States technology and have only recently (last 10-20 yrs) started to educate many engineers, programmers and scientists. The U.S. was the innovator in integrated circuit design, development and manufacturing. We gave some of this technology away to Japan, Taiwan, China and etc. as companies moved manufacturing facilities over seas.
I have to refer to studies written by organization such as Human Rights Watch and news stories I have seen about child labor still being used in India. If any changes have been made in India they are just now starting to take effect, India still has problems with child trafficking for sex and labor according to Human Rights Watch and other organizations.
I will leave with this comment, why don’t we outsource the corporate CEO’s and CFO’s job to India if the people there are so well educated and works cheaper?
L A: “How we got to the point” of talking about outsourcing to India and corruption and illiteracy in Mexico is, your last para above, in Comment #2, obviously, that “we have to stop greedy and corrupt companies and politicians from outsourcing to India.” (I’m not pasting the exact words here.) You’re blaming our problems on this, when that is just false; I’ve pointed out why this is misplaced blame on both India AND “greedy corporations” — who can’t make a profit paying what the union workers want. And don’t tell me they’re as qualified in the cases where people turn to outsourcing. You have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to calling employers “greedy,” when we all have to survive with competition that does indeed go up against countries and companies which employ cheap labor.
In the past, the aerospace industry and the boom of the 80’s spoiled so many of our older programmers and engineers, that they are unrealistic in their demands. (Engineers in other areas, like mechanical, where they’re needed on-site, are a different story. It all depends.)
And in Comment 6 you’re blaming American companies for the lack of environmental standards in Mexico. You sound just like the Mexicans themselves. If they took responsibility for ending corruption and educating their people, they could be booming and thriving like India, with far more poor people historically and many more obstacles to overcome. (Just ask the people in San Diego, who have to live with the filthy sewage seeping up to them from the oceans of their adjacent country.)
(By the way, when you talk about outsourcing to “places like India and China,” mixing the two is preposterous; we don’t do significant outsourcing to China, but too much importing of their goods. Only 2% of their population has a chance to go to college, and those lucky few are directed into fields of study that the government decides are needed.) Also, English is the common language of India, and they respect English law and traditions, side by side with their own. And I sure as hell would never expect to see them marching in endless rallies demanding citizenship status as illegals, harassing our cops and filing racebaiting lawsuits like they are doing now after May 1st, when they were allowed to march to promote their radical agenda. (Their lead attorney Carol Sobel says that the cops were lying when they said there were any agent provacateurs throwing bottles or anything, and about one cop getting pulled off his motorcycle; she has a couple of hundred and seeks “thousands” — i.e., anyone who was there that day, including non-existent provacateurs — to join in the suit against us the taxpayers. AND they’re marching again in a few days, on Sept. 12th.)
You’re the one who opined that it’s “greedy employers” who are to blame for the middle class’s woes by outsourcing and must be stopped (hell no — even a liberal like Hilary sees that that is NOT the boogeyman), that it’s “greedy Americans” who are to blame for the poor working conditions and environmental problems in Mexico when they try to take jobs there, and who took on the workers’ problems in India.
I’m not going to bother to answer your irrelevant attacks on India in general: why don’t you apply them to the country that is sending us almost half a million of their poorest and most illiterate people every year due to their internal failures — and in the process have ruined a city where the middle class could get excellent free education for their kids, have more affordable insurance than when masses were uninsured, could drive around the city in relative security, and where 46% of the hit and runs weren’t caused by uninsured and unlicensed, most illegal, drivers from Mexico? (Latter statistic from the L A Times couple of days ago, on Bratton’s latest crime reducation report.)
I’m not the one who brought up the myriad ways in which Mexico has driven the middle class out of the city, not just here but across the country, nor did I say they are the only cause of our ills and middle class decline (there are other trade policies involved as well) but if YOU blame a thriving and industrious middle class in India, wake up.
Go back and read my first post I said we are moving factories to China and outsourcing to India but ultimately both have the same effect, of taking jobs from the U.S. and moving them to other countries.
I was also responding to your comment about India having more qualified engineers and programmers than the U.S. I was trying to tell you India is a third world country which never had a high technology advantage over anybody much less the United States. India never designed or manufactured anything such as automobiles, tractors or electronics. They still ride around on wagons pulled by sacred cows. Any engineer in this country is going to laugh at the statement (India has highly qualified engineers). The U.S. was a leader in the industrial revolution, manufacturing, factory automation and the technology age. The U.S has the most sophisticated technology used in defense systems such as the cruise missile and stealth fighter jets. Is this an attack on India or statement of fact? Did the Human Rights Watch publish false report about child labor abuse in India?
I did not blame American companies for the lack of environmental controls in Mexico, I was saying American companies go there to exploit this lack of protections by Mexico. I don’t expect American companies to go fix their problems but they should not go there to exploit others either.
I will start anew with this question; Do you believe it is the duty and responsibility of our government to protect the American workers or should the American workers just let the corporations decide what is good for us. If we don’t agree on this basic principle then we are extreme opposites of the spectrum.
And just because a liberal like Hilary Clinton does not believe outsourcing is a problem does not mean it is not a problem. Our population is constantly growing and our need for workers is decreasing everyday so I do see this as a major problem in the making. Hilary sits on the Armed Services Committee, but she never spoke out about any waste by the Pentagon, was she just sleeping or incompetent? Hilary Clinton appears to be is just another career political puppet.
Other countries like Japan have very strict restrictions on foreign goods and workers, I still remember how back in the 70’s many U.S. semi-conductor manufactures were asking the government to put higher tariffs on Japanese memory chips, because the Japanese government was subsidizing Japanese companies. After two years of the Japanese companies dumping cheap memory chips the U.S. companies went belly up and the Japanese companies quickly raised their prices. Right now we have no major steel manufacturers in the United States, when the next global war comes around we will be dependent on foreign steel to build any military weaponry. Our government has not managed this or other problems in this new global economy. While I don’t think the government should control everything, I have not seen good results from our government in using foreign good and services.
We have a huge trade deficit with China and we continue to make concessions to allow China to import their products, where is congress or the White House?
If a company wants to save money it can outsource to workers in Montana where they work and also live a lot cheaper than in Southern California. There are plenty of companies using American workers and making a profit, they use techniques like profit sharing, and friendly work environments to motivate the employees. Corporate CEOs are being paid at an all time high, so forgive me if I don’t buy the “we aren’t making money argument†by most corporations.
L A, you were not “responding” to my comment, but vice versa, and as the rest of this final rejoinder lacks substance or relevance, and only mires you further in murk, I’m done and really not interested. Read and reread your own initial comments as a start.
Now we just have to stop greedy corporations and inept politicians from moving our factories to China and etc and outsourcing to India and etc. We also need to stop inept and corrupt politicians from negotiating the worst trade agreements possible for the American worker. The United States has managed to go from the leading consumer electronics manufacturer and designer to having virtually no consumer electronics manufactures. And unfortunately this story has been repeated in many industries.
***************************
Here is my original comment and still beleive what I said, and there is no requirement for you to agree or disagree with my opinions.
“greedy corporations”
I guess Democrats think that greedy is a word that must always precede the word corporations. If anyone dislikes “greedy corporations” don’t work for them and don’t buy from them.
Woody; who told you I was a Democrat? I am not like others who would blindly support a political party even when they elected the dumbest president in U.S. history who still supports and promotes a war most retired Generals tell him he can’t win. I am sure you know the names, Gen. John P. Abizaid, Gen. Eric K. Shinseki, Gen. Tommy Franks, Gen. William E. Odom, General John Batiste, Gen. Wesley Clark. And if General Petraeus reports about the real facts in Iraq he will be the next newly retired general. And to anybody who doesn’t know them just look them up on YouTube and listen to their words, it is quite telling.
Last time I checked most corporations are still driven by profit, and having one person riding his bike (or not buying Chinese goods) when the rest of the world is driving an SUV, is a noble cause but won’t make a damn bit of difference if the majority of citizens don’t do the same. If you want I can provide you a list of corporate CEOs convicted of fraud and theft, the list is very long so I won’t post it now. I am surprised you have not heard of the corporate pimps oops lobbyists in Washington who help corrupt the political system in their favor. This is an even bigger problem than old republicans looking for gay-sex in public bathrooms as they hypocritically speak about the evils of homosexuality and promote family values, a white picket fence and home-made apple pie.
Here is your favorite girl Hilary giving her opinion on keeping jobs in America, of course she contradicts herself at different times, typical politician. Woody this is why I am not a blind loyal Democrat as you erroneously believe.
Hilary – Keep our Jobs
Hilary – Giving away Jobs
Child Slaves of India
L.A. Resident, your own words expose your political affiliation. Why your own rabid reaction exposes you as a member of the radical Democratic left. Tell me, how much have you donated to MoveOn.org?
Nothing you say proves that corporations are “greedy.” However, using your standard, I can provide you with a list of Democrats who have broken the law, starting with the Clinton’s, so we’ll just say that they are all crooked, just as the people who voted for them are stupid or just have their hands out, which is another way to say that they are greedy.
A lot of prominent liberals said that they would leave the country if Bush was elected, so it’s not too much to think that they wouldn’t support businesses that they hate. Oh, wait, they didn’t leave after all. I guess you can’t believe liberals at all either, then.
Don’t think that I’m so curious about your links that I want to be sicked at watching Hillary Clinton screech about whatever is popular at the moment. But, I can say with no reservations that you’ll vote for her if she is the Democratic nominee. Maybe you wouldn’t call that blind support, but it’s either that or you’re greedy for “free” government health care or services.
Woody,
I actually buy my own health Insurance from Blue Cross but maybe I’m wrong and need to stop those monthly payments. By the way I voted for a republican governor because he was not a career politician who could make decision without worrying about upsetting his next campaign contributors. I guess I should have consulted with you before I voted for Arnold.
So now you are also clairvoyant and know what I will do in the future, damn you’re amazing. So Woody you are all knowing and can never be wrong on any subject? I can see this from reading your comments here and at Marc Cooper’s blog, you should be Emperor because you seem to know everything about me, and every subject you are ffiinn amazing! I won’t waste any more time debating a person who even knows what I will do in the future, and is an expert on every subject.
Let’s make Woody Emperor of the World, he knows everything, and he can even tell you what you will do in the future.
Hey, LAR, I’m no better than the Democrats who knew “from day one” about all of the problems we would have in Iraq. Well, I take that back. I am better than Democrats, but I don’t profess to have a crystal ball. I depend on logic and analysis, which makes me right more often than people who get emotional, like you.
I predict that the Dodgers will not win their division, but some Dodger fans are blinded and are sure that they will make it despite being 5 1/2 games back. Maybe they’ll get the wild card. What do you think, or are you a fan of the Angels, which will win the AL West?
(Schwarzenegger?!! Man, you are really right-wing.)
P.S. Leonardo Di Caprio has already claimed to be King of the World.
Woody says ….
I depend on logic and analysis, which makes me right more often than people who get emotional, like you.
*****************
Oh yes, we can clearly see you do NOT ever get emotional when it comes to talking about the evil Left Wing Democrats especially the Clintons.
I have not been a Dodger fan since the days of Ron Cey and Steve Garvey I can’t cheer for a team when I need to buy a program to know the players, and I also can’t cheer for a player this season and boo him the next season when he gets traded to the opposing team.
I watch more football now, a USC and Dallas Cowboys fan, and I am sure the Cowboys have better looking cheerleaders than every other NFL team and that IS an undisputable FACT.
Woody says …..
I depend on logic and analysis, which makes me right more often than people who get emotional, like you.
*******************************
Oh yes, we can clearly see you do NOT ever get emotional when it comes to talking about the evil Left Wing Democrats especially the Clintons.
I have not been a Dodger fan since the days of Ron Cey and Steve Garvey I can’t cheer for a team when I need to buy a program to know the players, and I also can’t cheer for a player this season and boo him the next season when he gets traded to the opposing team.
I watch more football now, a USC and Dallas Cowboys fan, and I am sure the Cowboys have better looking cheerleaders than every other NFL team and that IS an undisputable FACT.
Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders are Republicans.
I went to the official web-site for the Cowboys cheerleaders and looked at their “secrets”; it does not give their political affiliation. But I would not be opposing any of these women on any issue if I could get a favor in return.
http://dallascowboys.com/cheerleaders/our_secrets.cfm