This amendment banning individuals from purchasing insurance within the exchange that covers abortion reveals the perverted, hypocritical face of the crank-reactionary GOP. That’s the most invasive government-fucking-with-individuals’ free health care choices proposal that has been advanced in this whole process to date. What a bunch of crypto-fascist, disingenuous bastards. Sick shit. Perhaps it’s time to paint that Hitler moustache on the GOP and shout “Keep your hands off of our health care” at these extremist phonies who hate our freedom. This has nothing to do with tax dollars funding abortion (which I happen to not be against, but it’s not at issue) and everything to do with eliminating individual freedom in health insurance markets.
The idea that we should force people to pay for murder of infants reveals “the perverted, hypocritical face of the death-cult left.”
“This has nothing to do with tax dollars funding abortion ”
Only if you believe the lying democrats that the government won’t fund insurance (say, the public option) that is bought through the exchange.
Only if you don’t believe in the fungibility of money.
Only if you believe those who are against the murder of the unborn are fascist bastards… oh wait… you do, you baby murdering mass murderer.
BTW. Claire, I want to clarify my name calling in the last sentence. It is satirical – a parallel to reg’s name calling – and not an assertion about reg – whatever else I may think about him.
John, glad you’re here. You’re with us. OK. We’re with you, ok? Don’t do anything stupid. Now, we need Woody, Gava Joe, the right winger who always posts in Chicano slang, Tony Rafael, Sure Fire…has anyone seen them? Let’s get them in here. And, guys, only comforting words, ok? Positive vibes. They’re not stable tonight. You have to remember they equate this day with the end of the world. Let’s be very gentle with them, try to talk them back to sanity. Don’t laugh at them. Well, at least try not to….pffffft…bwahahaha..ok, seriously, that’s enough, let’s be supportive, guys.
“The murder of infants” – John , according to your belief system it’s time to send millions of women and doctors to death row as murderers. Ready to follow through with the logic of your crank POV? I absolutely believe the murder of children should be prosecuted as such – do you or are you holding back for partisan political purposes from calling for the death penalty or life in prison for people who commit what you obviously consider murder. I just wish people who make the allegations you make weren’t hypocrites and actually endorsed the folks who burn abortion clinics and shoot providers. I think you’re a coward.
That’s funny Reg, because without the provisions on abortion some of your liberal pals wouldn’t have joined the vote and the bill wouldn’t have passed. All your hyperbolic comments about “the perverted, hypocritical face of the crank-reactionary GOP” is a bit of base.
Say bye-bye to private health insurance, this is the first step that our idiot of a president wanted and now the eventual destruction of this system will be laid at his feet. The Chicago style tactics employed by this administration to have it passed is obscene.
Also, I wish the GOP had the balls to simply try to pass a law against any insurance companies funding abortion procedures – exchanges really have nothing to do with the demagoguery they’re pushing. Just an opportunity to bring more hysterics into the mix. The GOPers would be attacking health insurance companies for financing murder if they were true to their beliefs that “murder” shouldn’t be paid for by ANY dollars. Why don’t they move on them and get real.
John also proves he doesn’t even know anything about the health reform bill. This provision was just the usual demagogic horseshit from crap merchants like DickArmey who will use any bogus argument = whether they believe it or not – to rile the cohort of incredibly stupid people they rely on to front for them – sort of like their arguing this was a scheme to cut Medicare benefits when the DickArmey’s have for years been arguing that we need to…cut Medicare benefits.
This has been the most disgusting, disingenuous, dishonest gang of scumbags and hysterical morons in alliance I’ve seen in many a year. There’s not an honest bone in the bodies of the leadership of the reform opponents – except for the dummies in teabag hats carrying the Hitler signs who are suffering something close to mental illness and/or terminal disinformation from watching too much FOX. Not at all surprised that LaRouche showed up to cheer on these idiots and recruit for his cult from this gaggle of half-wits and hysterical cranks.
Surefire is, incidentally, right about Stupak. I’m making a donation to to Planned Parenthood in his name, so he gets the thank you sent directly to his office.
Also, I hope he’s right about private health insurance disappearing. But that’s putting the best possible face on the bill.
Here’s the list of anti-abortion violence in the US alone – which doesn’t include a whole range of other violent acts, including McVeigh and various Christian identity crazies who are clearly armed and dangerous. Also, the last time I looked, pro-health reform demonstrators weren’t threatening to come back next time with guns. Lots of the Tea-baggers are reaching that level of hysteria…which you are free to embrace.
ooops – that was supposed to go in the previous thread…
If many of you want health care “reform,” do it through your state legislatures and leave sane people in other states alone. I don’t 51% of federal representatives, most from other states, telling the remaining 49% of us that we have to give up our rights and healthcare choices.
As far as being forced to buy health insurance that meets federal guidelines (aka, rigging the system), Pelosi’s bill contains provisions for more taxes, regardless of income, and potential prison time for those who disregard her rules. If that’s your idea of our Constitution — taxes and jail time for just living — then you need to move.
You’re a fucking hypocrite Woody. You certainly didn’t argue that the Iraq war or the disastrous GOP deficits should be voted on “state-by-state.” You lost the Civil War. Don’t make us send Sherman back there to straighten out your crank, racist ass.
Did anyone, incidentally, see the idiot GOPer on the House floor who brought on a BABY and did the “Look who’s talking” thing. Or hear Boehner describe health insurance reform as the biggest threat to freedom facing America !! These people are morons – if there are aspects of this bill to be debated, it can’t be debated with demagogic idiots.
Of course, reg doesn’t see any difference between “providing for a common defense” and welfare for idiots who won’t take care of themselves. Once, again, there is “no right” to healthcare.
Invading Iraq provided for our “common defense” ? That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.
Boehner vs. Boehner – from a memo John Boehner wrote for his fellow GOPers entitle THE FUTURE IS CAO: “As House Republicans look ahead to the next two years, the Cao victory is a symbol of what can be achieved when we think big, present a positive alternative, and work aggressively to earn the trust of the American people.”
Cao, of course, was the only Republican to vote for health care reform. Boehner should start listening to himself, drop the idiotic demagogy and start acting like an adult with his intellect intact.
I would like to know more about how they’d fine or what other penalties there are for those who don’t buy health insurance by 2013. How will they find out – when someone goes to the ER they’ll be treated as criminals? It’s a good idea to make everyone participate so they’re not a burden on the rest (something Woody should support in principle, since he’s so harsh on “idiots who won’t take care of themselves”) but I’m concerned it may discourage some from getting medical care; that it creates a captive market for insurers and “public option” system, which allows them to charge higher rates; that applying for financial breaks depending on income may justify additional intrusions into our privacy, like the “right” to check our financials and link our medical records to IRS statements (something proposed in one of the earlier versions); and, I don’t like that some of the money to pay for this would come from further reducing MediCare – whose reimbursements in Calif. are already so low many doctors won’t take it. (Even as we hear of how some services and items as simple as nail clippers are charged to the system at exhorbitant rates, so SOMEONE is profiting and ripping off the system, but the money’s not going to honest doctors and patients.)
There’s an interesting overview in the Times of London today of Obama’s first year: correctly noting that Americans generally don’t understand how huge it’s been for the rest of the world to have a president who’s actually liked on the world stage as someone who doesn’t condescend to them.
But also characterizing this healthcare debate as being hijacked between far-right ideologues (like those who see Marxists behind every pillar and try to paint women who seek abortions as murderers and force them to have unwanted babies, so Woody can then berate the unwed mothers or those who know they can’t adequately provide for their kids), and far-left ideologues who are virtual socialists.
The article notes that there’s been an American pattern of our presidents accomplishing their boldest measures within their first year or close to it, or not at all – in that regard he’s wise to insist on cobbling something together before the year is out. Just not as wildly radical as some would like – the current 10 steps sound like a reasonable compromise (w/ my above caveats).
How can the bill debated with the way it was hidden from the populace Reg? This is only a debate for the congress, we get shut the fuck out? You’re a joke Reg, like the other socialists who are cheering their ass off as their moron of a fucking president destroys the economy (that’s a 10% unemployment rate now, happy?) along with our health care system while sitting back with his thumb up his ass refusing to make a decision on more troops needed to continue our effort in Afghanistan, you have lots to be proud of.
This will go down as the sleaziest adminstration and congress in history by the time these fucking assholes are through destroying America. The nice thing though is the death of the liberal majority that started on the 3rd was hurried up a whole lot with this fucking idiotic bill that the majority of the country was against along with the sleazy tactics used by Pelosi and her gang that the whole country saw.
Welcome back to the minority Reg.
This will go down as the sleaziest adminstration and congress in history by the time these fucking assholes are through destroying America.
When the Obama administration employs the CIA to interfere with an investigation by the FBI as Nixon did, you might have a point. Instead you’re just being hysterical.
Surefire – you’re a wack job. Proved my point.
WBC,
One possible way to notify your status would probably be on the income tax return.
Only 3 Calif Democrats voted to support the abortion exclusion: Baca of Rialto and Costas and another guy from Fresno. My strong hunch is that they’re Catholics. Jane Harman and some others, however, say they’ll reconsider their support if the abortion ban stays in. So it’s not a firm count.
Yeah, Randy Paul, I don’t see how else the government can determine who’s eligible for a subsidy or who’s to be fined for not buying, unless they link our medical records to our tax returns – as though people didn’t fear the IRS enough, now they’ll be a basis for civil or criminal liabilities. And who’s going to have access to this now even more expanded medical-income file? Will hospitals, if a patient has no insurance? How will they treat an uninsured patient who can’t pay cash? These are the ramifications which smack of an oppressive Big Brother Government, which is why Hillary (who I supported) opposed the criminal penalties.
Don’t do anything stupid. Now, we need Woody, Gava Joe, the right winger who always posts in Chicano slang, Tony Rafael, Sure Fire…has anyone seen them?
******************************
Does the new healthcare plan include treatment of WoodyPhobia, RafaelPhobia, SureFirePhobia, GavaPhobia?
Another HORRIBLE provision of the just hashed-out plan, being reported at the LATimes by James Oliphant, is that while there could no longer be exclusions for pre-existing conditions or those which contribute to health problems and higher need for medical care like obesity, diabetes, extremely high blood pressure, pregnancy or even severe kidney or other organ failure, older Americans regardless of how healthy would be charged double (or more, probably), even as MediCare benefits are further cut to pay for all this. This is downright idiotic – as the article implies, this is a demand of the insurance companies (following the lazy, idiotic AMA guidelines which go only by age), based on the fact that on statistical average, y
oops, hit button too soon, to finish: based on the fact that on statistical average, younger patients are healthier. Gee, nothing like taking away any incentive to take care of yourself as you get older – to reduce need for medical care, if not for humanitarian reasons – which SHOULD be a core principle.
My understanding, WBC, during the campaign was that Hillary supported the mandates and Obama didn’t. I liked not enforcing mandates prior to enacting reform and seeing how it worked out. If too many people still refused to buy insurance, some form of mandates could be looked at. That was Obama’s campaign position and I don’t think he’s taken a hard line on the bill’s form, so he probably still would have supported that coming out of the House. But that’s probably not practical. I would look to Massachusetts to see how mandates are enforced – I believe there is a tax penalty. But this is in no way linked to a person’s health records. I think that’s an overblown fear. People are legally required to buy insurance if they drive a car in most states, and they are required to connect to the public sewage and water systems and pay a fee, and subscribe to garbage collection, all as public health mandates. People are required to provide for the education of their children and are taxed so that “free” public schools are available to all. I don’t see something as basic as being included in the health care system and paying some scaled, fair share of it is controversial – since everyone expects at the very least to be provided with expensive emergency care in the event of some medical need, whether its catastrophic or routine. And frankly very few people could afford to pay that bill when they finally need the care but haven’t insured themselves. This is a matter of public health and fairness in sharing the cost. Once such systems are in place, like taking payments into medicare out of paychecks, very few folks want to eliminate them or find them unfair.
Most people like social services and don’t like taxes. It’s human nature.
I don’t know if they cover “Gavaphobia”, but I think they do have something for people who take themselves so seriously that they label anyone who calls them out and makes fun of them as having a “phobia” of them. I think it’s tranquilizers…until pot gets legalized.
You need to have insurance to get a driving license, because a car can be and often is a dangerous thing – but you don’t have to get a driving license, you choose to buy car insurance in order to drive, no one checks your financials. (Though the privacy concern there is, mandating GPS systems to see how much you drive, if rates are based on mileage – logical at first, but it becomes a way to monitor your every move which can be abused. Somewhat off topic.) It’s a very different situation from a situation where requiring medical care can occasion a criminal penalty, or where the government dictates health insurance rates to you based on your IRS statements.
You may be right about the Obama vs. Hillary issue, re: whose idea this way (Obama just generally is more sympathetic to big gov’t.); in any case, Pelosi seems committed to it. I hope Obama and some Democrats reconsider, and yes, it would be good to study how they do it in Mass. and how it’s working out. Another of the many details we’re not privy to, even as we’re being asked to support this.
The age ratio issue hasn’t been worked out, either, but Oliphant’s article says it can go anywhere from 2:1 for a 50 to 25 year old, to as high as 5:1; in Calif. it’s allegedly capped at 2.5:1 now. (So what a 25-year old pays $2000 for/ year is capped at 5000. But with a 5:1 it’s 2000 vs. $10.000, probably in a higher multiple.) So for many it could make things a lot worse.
And while eliminating exclusions is nice, paying for it on the backs of healthy older adults, who may not be wealthy, stinks. The idea of a younger person with cancer, diabetes or morbid obesity paying less while someone middle-aged but too young for MediCare pays multiple times more, makes the whole scheme worse than what we’ve got for many, as far as I’m concerned. Around age 50 is where the proposed pricing would become a lot more expensive than what we have now in Calif. Some states have ratios as high as 4:1 (wonder what it is in Mass.). Not surprisingly groups representing people 40’s or older are fighting it: I don’t see how AARP could be backing this. I fully expect the lame AMA to. (BTW I understand most practicing doctors don’t even belong to AMA, which is heavily made up of academics, people who see patients as statistics.)
WBC
The enforcement of the insurance mandate will be by America’s favorite secret police – the IRS. You will be required to present proof of insurance in order to avoid the penalty.
There’s an interesting overview in the Times of London today of Obama’s first year: correctly noting that Americans generally don’t understand how huge it’s been for the rest of the world to have a president who’s actually liked on the world stage as someone who doesn’t condescend to them.
Yeah, and it REALLY matters! Polls show support for or like of America have not risen significantly since Obama apologized to the whole world for Bush’s sins. Iran loves us so much it is continuing to build nukes while providing weapons to kill our soldiers. Russia now loves us so much that they have not removed their troops from sovereign Georgian territory, and have not stopped all their belicosity.
In other words, Obama’s wandering around the world doing his schtick may have pleased a few Eurocrats, but it hasn’t appeased anyone. The world is just as dangerous a place as before, the Europeans are not helping with their NATO obligations any more than before, etc.
Meanwhile, those who know tyranny well – the Eastern Europeans, have been stabbed in the back by Obama and know it.
This infantile idea that Obama could charm the world by “not condescending” towards them is nothing other than condescending towards them!
Gee, nothing like taking away any incentive to take care of yourself as you get older
As if this would have the slightest effect on major lifestyle issues that lead to these problems.
“Taking care of one’self” is one of the most overrated ideas around – I think it stems from an unconscious wish to believe one can stave off death forever by doing some magic incantation – such as exercise and diet.
The reality of motivation and how it interacts with incentives in the area of lifestyle is vastly more complex.
It is hardly a simple issue when obesity treatment (to take the most common example) has a lower success rate by far than treatment for brain cancer or lung cancer (obesity treatment has a 5% success rate when using behavior modification – somewhat better with bariatric surgery). Could it be that things are just not as simple as “hey, you should eat less and exercise more?”
John, can’t make much sense of your second comment except that it’s totally wrong. Someone who exercises wisely, with a balanced program of yoga and strength training and cardio, eats wisely and so on, maintains a healthy weight, is often in better shape than someone decades younger/half their age. Obviously you’ve never tried it, or hang with the wrong people. It’s an easy excuse for someone who’s overweight to say “why bother trying, it won’t work,” but it’s not true. You’re the fatalistic cop-out here.
Of course it’s not easy, and that’s the point: those who do it should be given strong incentives/ rewards. Yoga is a time-honored way to cleanse the inner organs, lymph system etc., as well as condition the body and relieve stress – of course Western doctors can’t quantify why it works, but more and more including at UCLA are finally studying it. Pilates can restored partly atrophied limbs. Such non-invasive approaches should be more routinely discussed and encouraged with patients, not trivialized. It’s long overdue for western medicine to adopt some knowledge from the eastern.
I don’t know where you get your 5% success rate “when using behavior modification,” whatever that means – hypnosis? Or getting into a radically more active physical routine and eating well? Even Type A diabetics routinely get off insulin with such “behavior modification.” For some grossly obese and in imminent danger, lapband surgery is proving amazingly successful at even eliminating diabetes within days after surgery. Conversely, some diabetes drugs can fight fat. The “behavior modification” must follow as part of the lifelong lifestyle change.
As to the first part, about Obama, you’re totally clueless. Yes it makes a HUGE difference when you can hold your head up traveling in Europe, but more importantly, in forging needed alliances. We’re certainly in a better position re: dealing with Iran than we were before. You’re partly right about Obama selling out the Eastern Europeans to appease Russia, but the jury’s out on that one: they’re working with us and Israel behind the scenes vs. Iran e.g. on renegade arms sales, but won’t stand up in public. The youth of Iran, fed up with their own mullahs and tyrants, may be our ace in the hole down the line.
I do agree that Obama’s dithering too much re: Afghanistan, as do military advisers here and abroad. The Taliban and other hostile forces understand strength, period. Having gone this far, we need to finish the job of restoring the fragile coalition that existed before the Russians deposed the King in 89. I do think we should never have gone into that mess, which wasn’t of our making, and has always been and still is part of the “Great Game” between Pakistan and India. But we did.
Correction, the “Great Game” was historically between India & China, focused on the Himalayan borderlands (with Britain and Russia the ultimate puppetmasters); with partition, Pakistan took on the intermediate role in the region of the other “stans” and the volatile Kashmir region. Of course China vs. India is still in full play in the Tibetan/Ladakhi/Nepalese regions: you can stand on one side and see Chinese soldiers massed a km. away.
Nidal Malik Hasan worshipped at a mosque that was led by radical imam who turned out to be a “spiritual advisor” to three hijackers of 9/11. According to the report, Hasan attended a mosque in Great Falls, Virginia in 2001 at the same time as two of the 9/11 terrorists. The imam is a man named Anwar al-Awlaki. He is known for, among other things, supporting attacks on British troops and backing terrorist organizations.
You guys are more concerned about backlash against Islamic terrorists than you are in American lives. Maybe you need to wake up and listen to conservatives.
WBC – although I think you might be overstating some things, it’s this complexity that makes single-payer such an obvious solution to the health care issue, paying for it with some form of generic taxation and eliminating the private insurance bureaucracies as well as any enforcement “police” bureaucracy. It’s why I’ve always believed that drivers should all be covered with some generic liability insurance, state administered, and paid for by an addition to the gasoline tax. It’s paid at the pump roughly according to miles driven and no one can escape it. Maybe a higher-risk surcharge could be added when folks renew their drivers license or car registration for things like speeding tickets or fault in accidents. Simple, less costly and universal. But we’ll never see something that effective because of the insurance lobby. Basically we can thank them for the fact that we’ll have a bizarre, relatively byzantine system in health insurance as well. As long as we’ve decided as a society that we’re not turning some people away from the emergency room door if they don’t have coverage, we should have simple, basic universal coverage for all, paid and administered as simply as possible. Once we have that we can also get a handle on costs by rewarding best practices with some consistency.
Oh, good grief. My comment above was placed on the wrong post. My bad.
John Moore – once again you don’t have a clue but are blowing ideological bullshit out of your ass. Obama’s approval ratings in Eastern Europe are significantly higher those of George Bush (and admittedly Bush fawned over the Eastern Europeans.) Obama’s approval in that regions has increased something like 50 points over Bush in Romania and Slovakia and 10-15 points in Romania and Poland. Of course that’s not as high as Western Europe, where Obama’s approval has increased astronomically over Bush. The “stab in the back” thing is right-wing “missile shield” hype that doesn’t take into account how unpopular that Bush proposal actually was in…Eastern Europe.
Also – WBC. The AMA only represents about a fifth of practicing physicians but their positions are still a bell-weather. They are very strong on the issue of capping medical malpractice awards and were against Medicare back in the day. They are in no way some liberal lobby, but are trying to balance concerns and interests of the profession and lobby as they see fit. The terrain in which doctors are working has obviously changed radically and I’ve never talked to a doctor who didn’t hate wrestling with the insurance bureaucracy. Most of them also feel ripped off by Medicare, but they don’t have quite the same animus. I also think most doctors want to see coverage made universal for obvious reasons – it’s in their interest as providers.
It will get there Randy, I have faith in how fucked up this administration is and will continue to be knowing they are employing Chicago style politics to the entire nation, a system that was built on corruption as s.o.p.
The AMA is not a “bell-weather” for anything, just more Reg pretending to know what he’s talking about. I have many family members in the medical profession and none, not one is in favor of this bill and are enraged at the dems for their tactics. Of course Reg loves Obama like he was his first piece of ass, the one you’ll always remmeber, so you can expect more idiot comments from him having to do with how much Europeans love him as comapred to the people here, where he’s the fucking president.
Where Mass. now has most of their population covered according to articles I read it’s the same coverage at a higher cost for the middle-class, just health-insurance reform not true health care reform.
Moore, WBC is right, work out and eat less and you live longer…most likely.
Surefire – quit pissing your pants with each comment. You’re a bitter moron.
I know offering actual empirical evidence is pretty pointless with guys masturbating themselves like Surefire and John Moore, but other people who aren’t wingnut wackos might find this poll of doctors useful (nearly 3/4 support either a public/private mix of insurance options which this current House bill offers or a public option only – the poll also shows that the AMA’s support of the bill is somewhat tentative and related to issues around doctors fees, so the notion that they’re some liberal lobby in Obama’s pocket is also undermined by this article):
I should have said “the article shows that the AMA’s support…” not “the poll shows…”
It will get there Randy
Utter horseshit.
Randy – everything he says is “true” because hes already down that peculiar rabbit hole…reality be damned.
I don’t know where you get your 5% success rate “when using behavior modification,†whatever that means – hypnosis? Or getting into a radically more active physical routine and eating well? Even Type A diabetics routinely get off insulin with such “behavior modification.†For some grossly obese and in imminent danger, lapband surgery is proving amazingly successful at even eliminating diabetes within days after surgery. Conversely, some diabetes drugs can fight fat. The “behavior modification†must follow as part of the lifelong lifestyle change.
It means every method of intervention from the medical community and others short of surgery. That’s a pretty remarkable figure, and it shows that whatever causes people to behave in a less healthy manner, it is not particularly sensitive to incentives – even strong ones.
As for the lap band, it is more successful, but long term, not all that great.
Obama’s approval in that regions has increased something like 50 points over Bush in Romania and Slovakia and 10-15 points in Romania and Poland.
Sigh. You miss the point. What counts is the approval of the US, you know, the country Obama leads, rather than the personal approval of Obama himself. What counts even more is the behavior of those whom Obama tries to influence. His “popularity” is about as useful for the US as was his pitch for the Chicago Olympics.
Obama’s popularity didn’t stop the corrupt British labor government from trading a terrorist who killed a couple hundred Americans for an oil deal. It hasn’t caused Putin to move any troops off of Georgian soil. It hasn’t slowed down the Iranians, who are now planning to put American hostages through show trials (they see a Carter, and hope to DO in the new Carter). It hasn’t caused Europe to improve its dismal performance in Afghanistan, where many NATO troops are forbidden from fighting. It hasn’t caused the Latin American leftist autocrats to slow down a second – but of course, Obama kissed up to them, to the point of overriding the constitution of Honduras.
Yeah, his popularity is a real asset – to anyone but the US.
John, I’m not going to argue the health issue with you – I made my views pretty clear, you’ve still got no basis for the 5% figure and even if you dragged one out of somewhere, it wouldn’t be credible. Sorry, but the party whose mascots are the obese Limbaugh whose only moving part is his nasty mouth, or on the other extreme the emaciated and unhealthy-looking equally foul-mouthed Ann Coulter, clearly know little about physical or mental balance. And are if anything in worse shape than average for their years – bad bile for one thing.
You are tonedeaf to the issue of America’s place in world opinion. The Nobel is clearly a clue, but of course the right has twisted that into some sort of BAD mark, as though being recognized by the world community makes him Un-American. I expressed some reservations about his performance so far on the international arena, however, I’m not one of the Obama-ites to whom he can do no wrong. Hillary’s experienced diplomacy balances out his lack of experience and possibly naive optimism in certain cases – he’s hardly acting alone. In fact, one thing that should reassure you is precisely what upsets the most progressive left: that he’s shifted much more toward the middle since taking office, listening to all sides and trying to find a balance. That’s made him indecisive on Afghanistan, perhaps, and he’s got to finish the job, and ignore those who want a pull-out; to leave the country in the more or less stable condition it was in before the Russians messed it up.
John – you made an idiot’s assertion based on zero evidence. I don’t really give a shit what voices you hear in your head.
WBC – I would say that Bob Gates is a more significant “balance” to Obama on national security issues. Gates is a very interesting guy – an almost crackpot hawk turned cautious, pragmatic realist – and Obama’s relationship with him is one of the most telling things about this administration that shows bloviating, hysterical boors like Moore and Surefire to be lost in their own ozone of self-absorbed weirdness, totally disconnected from the real world.
I’m being lectured by someone who knows that Yoga restores body balances – even if western science refuses to see it.
LOL
Sorry, but the party whose mascots are the obese Limbaugh whose only moving part is his nasty mouth,
Perhaps you should take another look. Limbaugh is no longer obese. Given the nature of the disorder, he will be again in a few years.
You are tonedeaf to the issue of America’s place in world opinion. The Nobel is clearly a clue, but of course the right has twisted that into some sort of BAD mark, as though being recognized by the world community makes him Un-American.
You are conflating America’s place in world opinion, and Obama’s place. I made the separation quite clear.
As for the Nobel… it really is pathetic that anyone takes that seriously. Some people earned that prize through great sacrifice. Obama got it as a signal from a few rich Norweigans that they like his style.
It is so typical of the modern left to favor style over substance.
reg,
Are you capable of carrying on a civil dialog?
No he’s not, like many elitist liberal frauds he thinks the sun rises and shines waiting for his words of wisdom.
I made the mistake of trying to be civil to Reggie Boy, but he’s shown that he’s just an asshole so why even try?
John M, the fact that “western science refuses to see it,” meaning benefits of yoga (ETC.) — your generalized statement which simply isn’t true, in the first place — simply means there’s no money in it for them to “see it.” Doctors do procedures and tests incentivized by reimbursement rates NOT what’s best for the patient in many cases, e.g. invasive or burdensome procedures when better options are available because they pay better; they conduct studies based on funding e.g. from some drug company that wants to “prove” its product safe to make money.
HOWEVER as I said in the first place, many doctors DO want to study non-traditional medicine and treatments like acupuncture and yoga because empirical evidence shows that they work — particularly in cases of “women’s ailments,” but there are numerous other areas as well.
But I won’t spend a minute more of my time trying to persuade a know-it-all like you that such things don’t work BECAUSE doctors “refuse to study them” in the first place. You KNOW for a fact that treating all of us based on statistical tables cooked up by the insurance industry with the AMA to make it “easy” for doctors to “treat” patients without actually having to treat them as individuals, is the right thing because, even if you did rouse yourself from the couch, NO MATTER WHAT you did, would achieve no more than a 5% success rate. That’s just IDIOTIC and an excuse to do nothing.
Yes, a GREAT message to send people of ANY age, but especially, a great way to discourage the obese or aging from trying to do anything too dramatic “since it won’t matter anyway.” This DIS-incentive for older people and the sheer age discrimination aspect is reprehensible, but figures that it’s the ONLY part that appeals to a rigid rightwing brand of Republican like you.
Both of you guys make false assertions based solely on your opinions, try to register them as fact and act like babies when you’re shown to be full of shit. Reality isn’t elitist – but people who think anything they pull out of their asses are pearls are clearly narcissistic.
Although, in farirness to your brand of “conservatism”, I guess I’d be pissed off too if the Feds required me to register what passed for my dick.
John M, the fact that “western science refuses to see it,†meaning benefits of yoga (ETC.) — your generalized statement which simply isn’t true, in the first place — simply means there’s no money in it for them to “see it.â€
Yeah, every nut and conspiracy theorist in the country always blames it on the money.
Nobody doubts that yoga has some benefits. However, what you claimed for it is beyond science.
As for treating by statistics – that’s because science can offer little else until genomic medicine gets further advanced. It isn’t about money, contrary to your ravings – it is about evidence. Statistics allows science to weight evidence, and when dealing with as complex a system as a human being, it is hard to get high resolution in the stats.
That leads to several things:
1) lack of specificity in treatment because there is no evidence for more specificity
2) overly restrictive rulings by the FDA, which kill people
3) nuts like you claiming that there’s magic here and magic there, but money is keeping people from seeing it.
In the future, as more research is done, and as genetic sequencing gets much cheaper, it will be possible to be much more accurate and much more specific in treatment. And that will be based on science, not mysticism.
Yeah, Sure Fire, I make that mistake from time to time. It’s futile. Better to ignore him than to stoop to his level, although sometimes the temptation is too hard to resist.
John, keep sitting on that couch raving – you sound like more and more of a lunatic every time you post. Your points are all gibberish. Talk about “nuts and conspiracy theorists.”
WBC, I am sorry if you don’t understand enough about scientific research to make out my points. But it’s consistent with your views on medicine and yoga.
Moore, WBC is right, work out and eat less and you live longer…most likely.
I don’t disagree that controlling weight and exercising will improve one’s life expectancy. I do, however, disagree with those who imagine that some government program can make that happen, because the evidence is very strong that interventions in this regard fail.
In other words, those who are already working out and maintaining low weight for long periods will probably continue to do so. Those who are not, probably won’t, and the answer isn’t as simple as will power.
And yes, I have struggled with this myself. I went through 5 years of intensive exercise and weekly meetings led by a trained counselor – after losing a huge amount of weight on a very low calorie diet. Guess what – at 1/2 the number of calories per day that my weight and height would dictate, and with lots of exercise (measured and recorded), the weight came back at the same rate as when I didn’t do anything.
So all I am saying is that this is not as simple as those fortunate enough to be on the healthy side imagine.
As for WBC, when he wanders into Yoga and how science is wrong about it because of money – he sounds like every other health crank on the planet. I was primarily responding to that.
This amendment banning individuals from purchasing insurance within the exchange that covers abortion reveals the perverted, hypocritical face of the crank-reactionary GOP. That’s the most invasive government-fucking-with-individuals’ free health care choices proposal that has been advanced in this whole process to date. What a bunch of crypto-fascist, disingenuous bastards. Sick shit. Perhaps it’s time to paint that Hitler moustache on the GOP and shout “Keep your hands off of our health care” at these extremist phonies who hate our freedom. This has nothing to do with tax dollars funding abortion (which I happen to not be against, but it’s not at issue) and everything to do with eliminating individual freedom in health insurance markets.
The idea that we should force people to pay for murder of infants reveals “the perverted, hypocritical face of the death-cult left.”
“This has nothing to do with tax dollars funding abortion ”
Only if you believe the lying democrats that the government won’t fund insurance (say, the public option) that is bought through the exchange.
Only if you don’t believe in the fungibility of money.
Only if you believe those who are against the murder of the unborn are fascist bastards… oh wait… you do, you baby murdering mass murderer.
BTW. Claire, I want to clarify my name calling in the last sentence. It is satirical – a parallel to reg’s name calling – and not an assertion about reg – whatever else I may think about him.
John, glad you’re here. You’re with us. OK. We’re with you, ok? Don’t do anything stupid. Now, we need Woody, Gava Joe, the right winger who always posts in Chicano slang, Tony Rafael, Sure Fire…has anyone seen them? Let’s get them in here. And, guys, only comforting words, ok? Positive vibes. They’re not stable tonight. You have to remember they equate this day with the end of the world. Let’s be very gentle with them, try to talk them back to sanity. Don’t laugh at them. Well, at least try not to….pffffft…bwahahaha..ok, seriously, that’s enough, let’s be supportive, guys.
“The murder of infants” – John , according to your belief system it’s time to send millions of women and doctors to death row as murderers. Ready to follow through with the logic of your crank POV? I absolutely believe the murder of children should be prosecuted as such – do you or are you holding back for partisan political purposes from calling for the death penalty or life in prison for people who commit what you obviously consider murder. I just wish people who make the allegations you make weren’t hypocrites and actually endorsed the folks who burn abortion clinics and shoot providers. I think you’re a coward.
That’s funny Reg, because without the provisions on abortion some of your liberal pals wouldn’t have joined the vote and the bill wouldn’t have passed. All your hyperbolic comments about “the perverted, hypocritical face of the crank-reactionary GOP” is a bit of base.
Say bye-bye to private health insurance, this is the first step that our idiot of a president wanted and now the eventual destruction of this system will be laid at his feet. The Chicago style tactics employed by this administration to have it passed is obscene.
Also, I wish the GOP had the balls to simply try to pass a law against any insurance companies funding abortion procedures – exchanges really have nothing to do with the demagoguery they’re pushing. Just an opportunity to bring more hysterics into the mix. The GOPers would be attacking health insurance companies for financing murder if they were true to their beliefs that “murder” shouldn’t be paid for by ANY dollars. Why don’t they move on them and get real.
John also proves he doesn’t even know anything about the health reform bill. This provision was just the usual demagogic horseshit from crap merchants like DickArmey who will use any bogus argument = whether they believe it or not – to rile the cohort of incredibly stupid people they rely on to front for them – sort of like their arguing this was a scheme to cut Medicare benefits when the DickArmey’s have for years been arguing that we need to…cut Medicare benefits.
This has been the most disgusting, disingenuous, dishonest gang of scumbags and hysterical morons in alliance I’ve seen in many a year. There’s not an honest bone in the bodies of the leadership of the reform opponents – except for the dummies in teabag hats carrying the Hitler signs who are suffering something close to mental illness and/or terminal disinformation from watching too much FOX. Not at all surprised that LaRouche showed up to cheer on these idiots and recruit for his cult from this gaggle of half-wits and hysterical cranks.
Surefire is, incidentally, right about Stupak. I’m making a donation to to Planned Parenthood in his name, so he gets the thank you sent directly to his office.
Also, I hope he’s right about private health insurance disappearing. But that’s putting the best possible face on the bill.
Here’s the list of anti-abortion violence in the US alone – which doesn’t include a whole range of other violent acts, including McVeigh and various Christian identity crazies who are clearly armed and dangerous. Also, the last time I looked, pro-health reform demonstrators weren’t threatening to come back next time with guns. Lots of the Tea-baggers are reaching that level of hysteria…which you are free to embrace.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
ooops – that was supposed to go in the previous thread…
If many of you want health care “reform,” do it through your state legislatures and leave sane people in other states alone. I don’t 51% of federal representatives, most from other states, telling the remaining 49% of us that we have to give up our rights and healthcare choices.
As far as being forced to buy health insurance that meets federal guidelines (aka, rigging the system), Pelosi’s bill contains provisions for more taxes, regardless of income, and potential prison time for those who disregard her rules. If that’s your idea of our Constitution — taxes and jail time for just living — then you need to move.
You’re a fucking hypocrite Woody. You certainly didn’t argue that the Iraq war or the disastrous GOP deficits should be voted on “state-by-state.” You lost the Civil War. Don’t make us send Sherman back there to straighten out your crank, racist ass.
Did anyone, incidentally, see the idiot GOPer on the House floor who brought on a BABY and did the “Look who’s talking” thing. Or hear Boehner describe health insurance reform as the biggest threat to freedom facing America !! These people are morons – if there are aspects of this bill to be debated, it can’t be debated with demagogic idiots.
Of course, reg doesn’t see any difference between “providing for a common defense” and welfare for idiots who won’t take care of themselves. Once, again, there is “no right” to healthcare.
Invading Iraq provided for our “common defense” ? That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.
Boehner vs. Boehner – from a memo John Boehner wrote for his fellow GOPers entitle THE FUTURE IS CAO: “As House Republicans look ahead to the next two years, the Cao victory is a symbol of what can be achieved when we think big, present a positive alternative, and work aggressively to earn the trust of the American people.”
Cao, of course, was the only Republican to vote for health care reform. Boehner should start listening to himself, drop the idiotic demagogy and start acting like an adult with his intellect intact.
I would like to know more about how they’d fine or what other penalties there are for those who don’t buy health insurance by 2013. How will they find out – when someone goes to the ER they’ll be treated as criminals? It’s a good idea to make everyone participate so they’re not a burden on the rest (something Woody should support in principle, since he’s so harsh on “idiots who won’t take care of themselves”) but I’m concerned it may discourage some from getting medical care; that it creates a captive market for insurers and “public option” system, which allows them to charge higher rates; that applying for financial breaks depending on income may justify additional intrusions into our privacy, like the “right” to check our financials and link our medical records to IRS statements (something proposed in one of the earlier versions); and, I don’t like that some of the money to pay for this would come from further reducing MediCare – whose reimbursements in Calif. are already so low many doctors won’t take it. (Even as we hear of how some services and items as simple as nail clippers are charged to the system at exhorbitant rates, so SOMEONE is profiting and ripping off the system, but the money’s not going to honest doctors and patients.)
There’s an interesting overview in the Times of London today of Obama’s first year: correctly noting that Americans generally don’t understand how huge it’s been for the rest of the world to have a president who’s actually liked on the world stage as someone who doesn’t condescend to them.
But also characterizing this healthcare debate as being hijacked between far-right ideologues (like those who see Marxists behind every pillar and try to paint women who seek abortions as murderers and force them to have unwanted babies, so Woody can then berate the unwed mothers or those who know they can’t adequately provide for their kids), and far-left ideologues who are virtual socialists.
The article notes that there’s been an American pattern of our presidents accomplishing their boldest measures within their first year or close to it, or not at all – in that regard he’s wise to insist on cobbling something together before the year is out. Just not as wildly radical as some would like – the current 10 steps sound like a reasonable compromise (w/ my above caveats).
How can the bill debated with the way it was hidden from the populace Reg? This is only a debate for the congress, we get shut the fuck out? You’re a joke Reg, like the other socialists who are cheering their ass off as their moron of a fucking president destroys the economy (that’s a 10% unemployment rate now, happy?) along with our health care system while sitting back with his thumb up his ass refusing to make a decision on more troops needed to continue our effort in Afghanistan, you have lots to be proud of.
This will go down as the sleaziest adminstration and congress in history by the time these fucking assholes are through destroying America. The nice thing though is the death of the liberal majority that started on the 3rd was hurried up a whole lot with this fucking idiotic bill that the majority of the country was against along with the sleazy tactics used by Pelosi and her gang that the whole country saw.
Welcome back to the minority Reg.
This will go down as the sleaziest adminstration and congress in history by the time these fucking assholes are through destroying America.
When the Obama administration employs the CIA to interfere with an investigation by the FBI as Nixon did, you might have a point. Instead you’re just being hysterical.
Surefire – you’re a wack job. Proved my point.
WBC,
One possible way to notify your status would probably be on the income tax return.
Only 3 Calif Democrats voted to support the abortion exclusion: Baca of Rialto and Costas and another guy from Fresno. My strong hunch is that they’re Catholics. Jane Harman and some others, however, say they’ll reconsider their support if the abortion ban stays in. So it’s not a firm count.
Yeah, Randy Paul, I don’t see how else the government can determine who’s eligible for a subsidy or who’s to be fined for not buying, unless they link our medical records to our tax returns – as though people didn’t fear the IRS enough, now they’ll be a basis for civil or criminal liabilities. And who’s going to have access to this now even more expanded medical-income file? Will hospitals, if a patient has no insurance? How will they treat an uninsured patient who can’t pay cash? These are the ramifications which smack of an oppressive Big Brother Government, which is why Hillary (who I supported) opposed the criminal penalties.
Don’t do anything stupid. Now, we need Woody, Gava Joe, the right winger who always posts in Chicano slang, Tony Rafael, Sure Fire…has anyone seen them?
******************************
Does the new healthcare plan include treatment of WoodyPhobia, RafaelPhobia, SureFirePhobia, GavaPhobia?
Another HORRIBLE provision of the just hashed-out plan, being reported at the LATimes by James Oliphant, is that while there could no longer be exclusions for pre-existing conditions or those which contribute to health problems and higher need for medical care like obesity, diabetes, extremely high blood pressure, pregnancy or even severe kidney or other organ failure, older Americans regardless of how healthy would be charged double (or more, probably), even as MediCare benefits are further cut to pay for all this. This is downright idiotic – as the article implies, this is a demand of the insurance companies (following the lazy, idiotic AMA guidelines which go only by age), based on the fact that on statistical average, y
oops, hit button too soon, to finish: based on the fact that on statistical average, younger patients are healthier. Gee, nothing like taking away any incentive to take care of yourself as you get older – to reduce need for medical care, if not for humanitarian reasons – which SHOULD be a core principle.
My understanding, WBC, during the campaign was that Hillary supported the mandates and Obama didn’t. I liked not enforcing mandates prior to enacting reform and seeing how it worked out. If too many people still refused to buy insurance, some form of mandates could be looked at. That was Obama’s campaign position and I don’t think he’s taken a hard line on the bill’s form, so he probably still would have supported that coming out of the House. But that’s probably not practical. I would look to Massachusetts to see how mandates are enforced – I believe there is a tax penalty. But this is in no way linked to a person’s health records. I think that’s an overblown fear. People are legally required to buy insurance if they drive a car in most states, and they are required to connect to the public sewage and water systems and pay a fee, and subscribe to garbage collection, all as public health mandates. People are required to provide for the education of their children and are taxed so that “free” public schools are available to all. I don’t see something as basic as being included in the health care system and paying some scaled, fair share of it is controversial – since everyone expects at the very least to be provided with expensive emergency care in the event of some medical need, whether its catastrophic or routine. And frankly very few people could afford to pay that bill when they finally need the care but haven’t insured themselves. This is a matter of public health and fairness in sharing the cost. Once such systems are in place, like taking payments into medicare out of paychecks, very few folks want to eliminate them or find them unfair.
Most people like social services and don’t like taxes. It’s human nature.
I don’t know if they cover “Gavaphobia”, but I think they do have something for people who take themselves so seriously that they label anyone who calls them out and makes fun of them as having a “phobia” of them. I think it’s tranquilizers…until pot gets legalized.
You need to have insurance to get a driving license, because a car can be and often is a dangerous thing – but you don’t have to get a driving license, you choose to buy car insurance in order to drive, no one checks your financials. (Though the privacy concern there is, mandating GPS systems to see how much you drive, if rates are based on mileage – logical at first, but it becomes a way to monitor your every move which can be abused. Somewhat off topic.) It’s a very different situation from a situation where requiring medical care can occasion a criminal penalty, or where the government dictates health insurance rates to you based on your IRS statements.
You may be right about the Obama vs. Hillary issue, re: whose idea this way (Obama just generally is more sympathetic to big gov’t.); in any case, Pelosi seems committed to it. I hope Obama and some Democrats reconsider, and yes, it would be good to study how they do it in Mass. and how it’s working out. Another of the many details we’re not privy to, even as we’re being asked to support this.
The age ratio issue hasn’t been worked out, either, but Oliphant’s article says it can go anywhere from 2:1 for a 50 to 25 year old, to as high as 5:1; in Calif. it’s allegedly capped at 2.5:1 now. (So what a 25-year old pays $2000 for/ year is capped at 5000. But with a 5:1 it’s 2000 vs. $10.000, probably in a higher multiple.) So for many it could make things a lot worse.
And while eliminating exclusions is nice, paying for it on the backs of healthy older adults, who may not be wealthy, stinks. The idea of a younger person with cancer, diabetes or morbid obesity paying less while someone middle-aged but too young for MediCare pays multiple times more, makes the whole scheme worse than what we’ve got for many, as far as I’m concerned. Around age 50 is where the proposed pricing would become a lot more expensive than what we have now in Calif. Some states have ratios as high as 4:1 (wonder what it is in Mass.). Not surprisingly groups representing people 40’s or older are fighting it: I don’t see how AARP could be backing this. I fully expect the lame AMA to. (BTW I understand most practicing doctors don’t even belong to AMA, which is heavily made up of academics, people who see patients as statistics.)
WBC
The enforcement of the insurance mandate will be by America’s favorite secret police – the IRS. You will be required to present proof of insurance in order to avoid the penalty.
Yeah, and it REALLY matters! Polls show support for or like of America have not risen significantly since Obama apologized to the whole world for Bush’s sins. Iran loves us so much it is continuing to build nukes while providing weapons to kill our soldiers. Russia now loves us so much that they have not removed their troops from sovereign Georgian territory, and have not stopped all their belicosity.
In other words, Obama’s wandering around the world doing his schtick may have pleased a few Eurocrats, but it hasn’t appeased anyone. The world is just as dangerous a place as before, the Europeans are not helping with their NATO obligations any more than before, etc.
Meanwhile, those who know tyranny well – the Eastern Europeans, have been stabbed in the back by Obama and know it.
This infantile idea that Obama could charm the world by “not condescending” towards them is nothing other than condescending towards them!
As if this would have the slightest effect on major lifestyle issues that lead to these problems.
“Taking care of one’self” is one of the most overrated ideas around – I think it stems from an unconscious wish to believe one can stave off death forever by doing some magic incantation – such as exercise and diet.
The reality of motivation and how it interacts with incentives in the area of lifestyle is vastly more complex.
It is hardly a simple issue when obesity treatment (to take the most common example) has a lower success rate by far than treatment for brain cancer or lung cancer (obesity treatment has a 5% success rate when using behavior modification – somewhat better with bariatric surgery). Could it be that things are just not as simple as “hey, you should eat less and exercise more?”
John, can’t make much sense of your second comment except that it’s totally wrong. Someone who exercises wisely, with a balanced program of yoga and strength training and cardio, eats wisely and so on, maintains a healthy weight, is often in better shape than someone decades younger/half their age. Obviously you’ve never tried it, or hang with the wrong people. It’s an easy excuse for someone who’s overweight to say “why bother trying, it won’t work,” but it’s not true. You’re the fatalistic cop-out here.
Of course it’s not easy, and that’s the point: those who do it should be given strong incentives/ rewards. Yoga is a time-honored way to cleanse the inner organs, lymph system etc., as well as condition the body and relieve stress – of course Western doctors can’t quantify why it works, but more and more including at UCLA are finally studying it. Pilates can restored partly atrophied limbs. Such non-invasive approaches should be more routinely discussed and encouraged with patients, not trivialized. It’s long overdue for western medicine to adopt some knowledge from the eastern.
I don’t know where you get your 5% success rate “when using behavior modification,” whatever that means – hypnosis? Or getting into a radically more active physical routine and eating well? Even Type A diabetics routinely get off insulin with such “behavior modification.” For some grossly obese and in imminent danger, lapband surgery is proving amazingly successful at even eliminating diabetes within days after surgery. Conversely, some diabetes drugs can fight fat. The “behavior modification” must follow as part of the lifelong lifestyle change.
As to the first part, about Obama, you’re totally clueless. Yes it makes a HUGE difference when you can hold your head up traveling in Europe, but more importantly, in forging needed alliances. We’re certainly in a better position re: dealing with Iran than we were before. You’re partly right about Obama selling out the Eastern Europeans to appease Russia, but the jury’s out on that one: they’re working with us and Israel behind the scenes vs. Iran e.g. on renegade arms sales, but won’t stand up in public. The youth of Iran, fed up with their own mullahs and tyrants, may be our ace in the hole down the line.
I do agree that Obama’s dithering too much re: Afghanistan, as do military advisers here and abroad. The Taliban and other hostile forces understand strength, period. Having gone this far, we need to finish the job of restoring the fragile coalition that existed before the Russians deposed the King in 89. I do think we should never have gone into that mess, which wasn’t of our making, and has always been and still is part of the “Great Game” between Pakistan and India. But we did.
Correction, the “Great Game” was historically between India & China, focused on the Himalayan borderlands (with Britain and Russia the ultimate puppetmasters); with partition, Pakistan took on the intermediate role in the region of the other “stans” and the volatile Kashmir region. Of course China vs. India is still in full play in the Tibetan/Ladakhi/Nepalese regions: you can stand on one side and see Chinese soldiers massed a km. away.
Yeah, maybe you need to read this.
WHAT DOES THE FT. HOOD SHOOTER HAVE TO DO WITH 9/11?
You guys are more concerned about backlash against Islamic terrorists than you are in American lives. Maybe you need to wake up and listen to conservatives.
WBC – although I think you might be overstating some things, it’s this complexity that makes single-payer such an obvious solution to the health care issue, paying for it with some form of generic taxation and eliminating the private insurance bureaucracies as well as any enforcement “police” bureaucracy. It’s why I’ve always believed that drivers should all be covered with some generic liability insurance, state administered, and paid for by an addition to the gasoline tax. It’s paid at the pump roughly according to miles driven and no one can escape it. Maybe a higher-risk surcharge could be added when folks renew their drivers license or car registration for things like speeding tickets or fault in accidents. Simple, less costly and universal. But we’ll never see something that effective because of the insurance lobby. Basically we can thank them for the fact that we’ll have a bizarre, relatively byzantine system in health insurance as well. As long as we’ve decided as a society that we’re not turning some people away from the emergency room door if they don’t have coverage, we should have simple, basic universal coverage for all, paid and administered as simply as possible. Once we have that we can also get a handle on costs by rewarding best practices with some consistency.
Oh, good grief. My comment above was placed on the wrong post. My bad.
John Moore – once again you don’t have a clue but are blowing ideological bullshit out of your ass. Obama’s approval ratings in Eastern Europe are significantly higher those of George Bush (and admittedly Bush fawned over the Eastern Europeans.) Obama’s approval in that regions has increased something like 50 points over Bush in Romania and Slovakia and 10-15 points in Romania and Poland. Of course that’s not as high as Western Europe, where Obama’s approval has increased astronomically over Bush. The “stab in the back” thing is right-wing “missile shield” hype that doesn’t take into account how unpopular that Bush proposal actually was in…Eastern Europe.
http://www.transatlantictrends.org/trends/2009/docs/2009_English_Key.pdf
Also – WBC. The AMA only represents about a fifth of practicing physicians but their positions are still a bell-weather. They are very strong on the issue of capping medical malpractice awards and were against Medicare back in the day. They are in no way some liberal lobby, but are trying to balance concerns and interests of the profession and lobby as they see fit. The terrain in which doctors are working has obviously changed radically and I’ve never talked to a doctor who didn’t hate wrestling with the insurance bureaucracy. Most of them also feel ripped off by Medicare, but they don’t have quite the same animus. I also think most doctors want to see coverage made universal for obvious reasons – it’s in their interest as providers.
It will get there Randy, I have faith in how fucked up this administration is and will continue to be knowing they are employing Chicago style politics to the entire nation, a system that was built on corruption as s.o.p.
The AMA is not a “bell-weather” for anything, just more Reg pretending to know what he’s talking about. I have many family members in the medical profession and none, not one is in favor of this bill and are enraged at the dems for their tactics. Of course Reg loves Obama like he was his first piece of ass, the one you’ll always remmeber, so you can expect more idiot comments from him having to do with how much Europeans love him as comapred to the people here, where he’s the fucking president.
Where Mass. now has most of their population covered according to articles I read it’s the same coverage at a higher cost for the middle-class, just health-insurance reform not true health care reform.
Moore, WBC is right, work out and eat less and you live longer…most likely.
Surefire – quit pissing your pants with each comment. You’re a bitter moron.
I know offering actual empirical evidence is pretty pointless with guys masturbating themselves like Surefire and John Moore, but other people who aren’t wingnut wackos might find this poll of doctors useful (nearly 3/4 support either a public/private mix of insurance options which this current House bill offers or a public option only – the poll also shows that the AMA’s support of the bill is somewhat tentative and related to issues around doctors fees, so the notion that they’re some liberal lobby in Obama’s pocket is also undermined by this article):
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112818960
I should have said “the article shows that the AMA’s support…” not “the poll shows…”
It will get there Randy
Utter horseshit.
Randy – everything he says is “true” because hes already down that peculiar rabbit hole…reality be damned.
It means every method of intervention from the medical community and others short of surgery. That’s a pretty remarkable figure, and it shows that whatever causes people to behave in a less healthy manner, it is not particularly sensitive to incentives – even strong ones.
As for the lap band, it is more successful, but long term, not all that great.
Sigh. You miss the point. What counts is the approval of the US, you know, the country Obama leads, rather than the personal approval of Obama himself. What counts even more is the behavior of those whom Obama tries to influence. His “popularity” is about as useful for the US as was his pitch for the Chicago Olympics.
Obama’s popularity didn’t stop the corrupt British labor government from trading a terrorist who killed a couple hundred Americans for an oil deal. It hasn’t caused Putin to move any troops off of Georgian soil. It hasn’t slowed down the Iranians, who are now planning to put American hostages through show trials (they see a Carter, and hope to DO in the new Carter). It hasn’t caused Europe to improve its dismal performance in Afghanistan, where many NATO troops are forbidden from fighting. It hasn’t caused the Latin American leftist autocrats to slow down a second – but of course, Obama kissed up to them, to the point of overriding the constitution of Honduras.
Yeah, his popularity is a real asset – to anyone but the US.
John, I’m not going to argue the health issue with you – I made my views pretty clear, you’ve still got no basis for the 5% figure and even if you dragged one out of somewhere, it wouldn’t be credible. Sorry, but the party whose mascots are the obese Limbaugh whose only moving part is his nasty mouth, or on the other extreme the emaciated and unhealthy-looking equally foul-mouthed Ann Coulter, clearly know little about physical or mental balance. And are if anything in worse shape than average for their years – bad bile for one thing.
You are tonedeaf to the issue of America’s place in world opinion. The Nobel is clearly a clue, but of course the right has twisted that into some sort of BAD mark, as though being recognized by the world community makes him Un-American. I expressed some reservations about his performance so far on the international arena, however, I’m not one of the Obama-ites to whom he can do no wrong. Hillary’s experienced diplomacy balances out his lack of experience and possibly naive optimism in certain cases – he’s hardly acting alone. In fact, one thing that should reassure you is precisely what upsets the most progressive left: that he’s shifted much more toward the middle since taking office, listening to all sides and trying to find a balance. That’s made him indecisive on Afghanistan, perhaps, and he’s got to finish the job, and ignore those who want a pull-out; to leave the country in the more or less stable condition it was in before the Russians messed it up.
John – you made an idiot’s assertion based on zero evidence. I don’t really give a shit what voices you hear in your head.
WBC – I would say that Bob Gates is a more significant “balance” to Obama on national security issues. Gates is a very interesting guy – an almost crackpot hawk turned cautious, pragmatic realist – and Obama’s relationship with him is one of the most telling things about this administration that shows bloviating, hysterical boors like Moore and Surefire to be lost in their own ozone of self-absorbed weirdness, totally disconnected from the real world.
I’m being lectured by someone who knows that Yoga restores body balances – even if western science refuses to see it.
LOL
Perhaps you should take another look. Limbaugh is no longer obese. Given the nature of the disorder, he will be again in a few years.
You are conflating America’s place in world opinion, and Obama’s place. I made the separation quite clear.
As for the Nobel… it really is pathetic that anyone takes that seriously. Some people earned that prize through great sacrifice. Obama got it as a signal from a few rich Norweigans that they like his style.
It is so typical of the modern left to favor style over substance.
reg,
Are you capable of carrying on a civil dialog?
No he’s not, like many elitist liberal frauds he thinks the sun rises and shines waiting for his words of wisdom.
I made the mistake of trying to be civil to Reggie Boy, but he’s shown that he’s just an asshole so why even try?
John M, the fact that “western science refuses to see it,” meaning benefits of yoga (ETC.) — your generalized statement which simply isn’t true, in the first place — simply means there’s no money in it for them to “see it.” Doctors do procedures and tests incentivized by reimbursement rates NOT what’s best for the patient in many cases, e.g. invasive or burdensome procedures when better options are available because they pay better; they conduct studies based on funding e.g. from some drug company that wants to “prove” its product safe to make money.
HOWEVER as I said in the first place, many doctors DO want to study non-traditional medicine and treatments like acupuncture and yoga because empirical evidence shows that they work — particularly in cases of “women’s ailments,” but there are numerous other areas as well.
But I won’t spend a minute more of my time trying to persuade a know-it-all like you that such things don’t work BECAUSE doctors “refuse to study them” in the first place. You KNOW for a fact that treating all of us based on statistical tables cooked up by the insurance industry with the AMA to make it “easy” for doctors to “treat” patients without actually having to treat them as individuals, is the right thing because, even if you did rouse yourself from the couch, NO MATTER WHAT you did, would achieve no more than a 5% success rate. That’s just IDIOTIC and an excuse to do nothing.
Yes, a GREAT message to send people of ANY age, but especially, a great way to discourage the obese or aging from trying to do anything too dramatic “since it won’t matter anyway.” This DIS-incentive for older people and the sheer age discrimination aspect is reprehensible, but figures that it’s the ONLY part that appeals to a rigid rightwing brand of Republican like you.
Both of you guys make false assertions based solely on your opinions, try to register them as fact and act like babies when you’re shown to be full of shit. Reality isn’t elitist – but people who think anything they pull out of their asses are pearls are clearly narcissistic.
Although, in farirness to your brand of “conservatism”, I guess I’d be pissed off too if the Feds required me to register what passed for my dick.
Yeah, every nut and conspiracy theorist in the country always blames it on the money.
Nobody doubts that yoga has some benefits. However, what you claimed for it is beyond science.
As for treating by statistics – that’s because science can offer little else until genomic medicine gets further advanced. It isn’t about money, contrary to your ravings – it is about evidence. Statistics allows science to weight evidence, and when dealing with as complex a system as a human being, it is hard to get high resolution in the stats.
That leads to several things:
1) lack of specificity in treatment because there is no evidence for more specificity
2) overly restrictive rulings by the FDA, which kill people
3) nuts like you claiming that there’s magic here and magic there, but money is keeping people from seeing it.
In the future, as more research is done, and as genetic sequencing gets much cheaper, it will be possible to be much more accurate and much more specific in treatment. And that will be based on science, not mysticism.
Yeah, Sure Fire, I make that mistake from time to time. It’s futile. Better to ignore him than to stoop to his level, although sometimes the temptation is too hard to resist.
John, keep sitting on that couch raving – you sound like more and more of a lunatic every time you post. Your points are all gibberish. Talk about “nuts and conspiracy theorists.”
WBC, I am sorry if you don’t understand enough about scientific research to make out my points. But it’s consistent with your views on medicine and yoga.
I don’t disagree that controlling weight and exercising will improve one’s life expectancy. I do, however, disagree with those who imagine that some government program can make that happen, because the evidence is very strong that interventions in this regard fail.
In other words, those who are already working out and maintaining low weight for long periods will probably continue to do so. Those who are not, probably won’t, and the answer isn’t as simple as will power.
And yes, I have struggled with this myself. I went through 5 years of intensive exercise and weekly meetings led by a trained counselor – after losing a huge amount of weight on a very low calorie diet. Guess what – at 1/2 the number of calories per day that my weight and height would dictate, and with lots of exercise (measured and recorded), the weight came back at the same rate as when I didn’t do anything.
So all I am saying is that this is not as simple as those fortunate enough to be on the healthy side imagine.
As for WBC, when he wanders into Yoga and how science is wrong about it because of money – he sounds like every other health crank on the planet. I was primarily responding to that.