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Jamiel Shaw and gangs

May 11th, 2008 by Celeste Fremon


Here’s how it works:
It isn’t always if you’re a member of a gang…. Sometimes it’s where you grew up….or who you were friends with in elementary school….or who you’ve known all your life because you grew up down the street from each other…or what gang you would have been in if you’d been in a gang….even though you weren’t, and were the good kid who stayed out of it, and did the right thing, and made your parents proud and didn’t bang, or put in work, or really claim a neighborhood, get jumped in……and all that.

Sometimes you can end up dead anyway.

According to gang expert Alex Alonso, it was that kind of tangential association to gangs that may have had much to do with why foot ball star Jamiel Shaw was killed.

Here’s some of what Alonso had to say:

Jamiel wasn’t a bad kid, but he did have relationships with gang members
in his community that led to Espinoza’s fatal assault on him. Jamiel lived in a community occupied by Bloods that have been at war with 18th Street for 12 years. With witnesses pointing out that a Hispanic was responsible for the murder, the only logical assailant would be a member of 18th Street, a predominately Mexican-American gang with some illegal alien members. Reports that 18th Street gang has a membership that is 80% illegal is false. Of the County’s total gang population approximately five to 10% are illegal.

The 18th Street gang formed in the 1960s in the Pico-Union community
of Los Angeles and has formed over 20 separate gangs within Los Angeles County. Collectively they are the largest Hispanic gang operating under the same name, but in actuality, each of the 20 or so discreet 18th Street neighborhoods should be treated as individual autonomous gangs, since many of the separate neighborhoods clash and have internal rivalries in an unstable network. Reports that 18th Street as a “supergang” are media myths that also include gangs such as MS13, Maravilla, Surenos, Crips, and Bloods, all which are NOT gangs but umbrella labels that hundreds of gangs in Los Angeles identify with. If there were any truth to the existence of these “supergangs,” then the Crips, predominately black, would be the largest street gang in Southern California with approximately 20,000 members in Los Angeles County alone and several thousands more in the surrounding Counties. Since the Crips and black-on-black violence was yesterday’s news, our media is no longer concerned with their violence, even though they are responsible for the majority of gang crimes in our city. Mainstream media attention on gangs for some has now shifted to highlighting the violence that the smaller illegal alien gang member population have committed.

In the Arlington Heights neighborhood, a preliminary investigation reveals that the shooter from 18th Street went to the door of one of Jamiel’s neighbors and shortly thereafter saw Jamiel walking on the street, who was wearing a red belt, a common gang identifier in that neighborhood. According to a witness, the shooter asked Jamiel what gang he was from and then he shot him. All indications about Jamiel was that he was a good teen with a bright future, but what may have caused the shooter to single Jamiel out was his association with the neighborhood including amiable relationships with Blood gang members. His relationships with these gang members should not take away from his good character nor does it justify his murder, because people such as Jamiel inevitably interact with gangs because they are in the neighborhood, on the school bus, protecting residents from other gangs, on the street corners and at the high school.

Many of our City’s 40,000 gang members in the database a
re teens like Jamiel, just mere associates that interact with those in the community and play sports. They are not of the criminal element, but based on his associations, law enforcement would categorize young Jamiel as a gang member, and if they read the following quote that Jamiel wrote on one of his myspace pages under “people I’d like to meet,” it would raise more eyebrows to his gang affiliation:



The term “B-DOGS” in the above quote is a reference to Blood gang members,
and “crabs” is a derogatory reference to Crip gang members. I would characterize the above statement as normal adolescent behavior but law enforcement will call this gang related. Jamiel was not a bad kid, but he was specifically targeted because of his gang association……..

Jamiel’s association with the Bloods was strong enough to cause the shooter to target him
, making this shooting purely gang related as the shooter’s purpose was to benefit the 18th Street gang’s objectives. When the shooter asked, according to a witness, where Jamiel was from, that provided the shooter’s motive lessening the role of race in this shooting. The murder of Cheryl Green in Harbor City in 2006, the murder of Kenneth Wilson in 1999, the murder of Christopher Bowser in 2000, and the murder of Anthony Prudhomme in 2000, all in Highland Park were black residents killed in purely racially motivated fashion where the victims had no gang affiliation in communities where black gangs were not even present. Additionally all the Hispanic assailants in the above murders were US Citizens.

Where Alonso has it right is that Jamiel’s death is a reminder of how complex
our city’s gang problems really are, and that those who would simplify the tragedy that is gang violence with stupid, arbitrary laws, in the end, become part of the problem.

It would be nice if something as wrong-headed and simplistic as Jamiel’s Law and/or Dennis Zine’s related resolution could make a substantial dent in the mess that is gang violence, and thus would prevent future tragedies like the death of Jamiel Shaw.

But unfortunately it just isn’t the case.

If we want to keep other Los Angeles mothers from enduring the unbearable loss
that Jamiel’s mom faced this past Mothers’ Day, we’re going to have to work a little bit harder than that.

Posted in crime and punishment, Gangs, LA City Council | 28 Comments »

28 Responses

  1. Woody Says:

    A “hate crime”?

  2. "reg" Says:

    I followed a few “GANG” posts back to get more background on this and came across the Zine resolution. Frankly, it seems like common sense from a law enforcement perspective. While I think there’s a good argument for not making immigration enforcement a police priority and an overwhelming imperative for establishing some strict guidelines that give folks here illegally confidence that if they interact with police as witnesses or complainants, the issue of residence status won’t be brought up, the notion that there’s something wrong with police investigating a criminal suspect’s immigration status – gang member or not – seems crazy. Since when haven’t the police used lesser infractions as a way to put pressure on suspects and “get in their space” – infractions that they wouldn’t press against someone helping them as a witness or seeking their help for the obvious reason of maintaining good relations and trust.

    This has nothing to do with making a local police force the effective arm of federal immigration authorities or putting this high on their list of enforcement priorities. But If a person is, indeed, a legitimate criminal suspect – and the version of Zine’s resoluiion I saw was premised on that – I can’t understand why anything that makes the subject more vulnerable to arrest and further investigation is taken off the table. Of course this is subject to abuse, but police abuse investigative powers all the time. That doesn’t mean we simply eliminate them. It’s a question of oversight against abuse. People seem to have gone a little crazy on the immigration issue on all sides. You don’t have to be Lou Dobbs to think that any questions about legal residency status should not be walled off in a criminal investigation.

    The question I’d ask – since police not wanting immigration enforcement added to their tasks is the foundation of the arguments I’ve seen – is do police want to be mandated not to even be able to inquire about this when they’re investigating a suspect. I’d bet that’s not the case. I’d also bet that if the police used immigration violations judiciously – and I emphasize the word “judiciously” – against known criminals for whom they were having trouble making cases stick, people who live in those communities (and may or may not have their own immigration issues) wouldn’t feel that the quality of their lives were being further diminished or that their paranoia was being heightened. Whether the police will always act judiciously isn’t even an open question, of course. But the same can be said for politicians – on both sides of the issue – who engage in grandstanding or who impose arbitrary constraints on how cops move against suspects. Of course we need constraints, but to put an entire category of infractions out of bounds doesn’t make any sense. Actually, it gives fodder to guys like Lou Dobbs and Bill O’Reilly who want to raise these issues to a level of hysteria.

    Frankly, Bill O’Reilly makes as much sense in the clip linked to Alonzo’s column as Alonzo does in dragging up Shaw’s myspace comments as somehow “rationalizing” his murder because taq Shaw with “gang associations.” . Despite the Kumbaya, “More resources for the kids” angle, it seemed like a creepy attempt to use innuendo against Shaw as a way to deflect from any suggestion that (a) race has something to do with a guy from a predominantly Mexican gang wandering into the territory of a black gang and shooting a black kid he’s presumably never seen before and has no personal beef with and (b) any suggestion that using immigration law against criminal suspects might make sense under certain circumstances. I’m dubious about the “gang associations” that Alonso infers from the myspace comments – it comes across as a way of making the murder seem “rationally” linked to something Shaw was involved in (despite the assurances that he was a “good kid”) rather than the act of a sociopath for whom at least a reasonable case can be made that he shouldn’t have been on the streets at all. So IMHO Alonzo doesn’t come across as any more of an honest broker by digging up Shaw’s myspace comments than Bill O’Reilly. Reminds me a bit too much of a defense lawyer who goes after a rape victim by trying to prove that she was flirtatious.

  3. PoPl ( o )~( o ) ck ! Says:

    Even before Alonso figure out the truth behind this kid’s death, I brought up Shaw’s gang involvement with the bloods to my peers. My good black friends just nodded their heads in disbelief on the community’s reaction on blaming illegals. Everyone I work with carefully listens to me with great admiration, for telling the truth on whats behind the scenes and curtains.
    Like every other issue I have addressed and bring light upon, I just get some idiot politician, some reporter, or a so called community based organizer cry foul play.
    Post 9/11 America continues to show its true colors on race relations, issues and its never ending finger pointing blame towards “illegals” – specifically the dreaded “DIRTY MEXICANS.”
    I’m just waiting for White America (and a couple of coconuts and Oreos) to support another, “Operation Wetback Go Home.”

  4. "reg" Says:

    “Everyone I work with carefully listens to me with great admiration, for telling the truth on whats behind the scenes and curtains.”

    Uh…no doubt.

  5. PoPl ( o )~( o ) ck ! Says:

    After California became a police state in the late 1920s and 30s, this is all my great grandparents got for having Oregon/Californian born children – losing their well paid jobs, force to sell their two story home and taking the entire fucking family back to Guadalajara, Mexico…..

    “The state of California passed the Apology Act for the 1930s Mexican Repatriation Program in 2005, officially recognizing the “unconstitutional removal and coerced emigration of United States citizens and legal residents of Mexican descent” and apologizing to residents of California “for the fundamental violations of their basic civil liberties and constitutional rights committed during the period of illegal deportation and coerced emigration.”

    You racist White A@@-Os should start paying up some money to my family (specifically my grandparents) before you start deporting anyone else.

    Imagine the anger of listening to my grandmother tell me that she can not walk into the California State Capital Building (in her own birth town of Sacramento) becuase the last time she remembers, as a little girl, Mexicans were not allowed on the Captial’s property.

  6. "reg" Says:

    Is this a reparations thread ? WTF ? I’m sure we can come up with a case for the Shaw family if we want to go down that road. You’re not making an argument that has a goddamned thing to do with the issues around illegal immigration in the 21st century. The best you’ve offered on-topic is an assertion that Shaw had “gang affiliations”, thus effectively blaming the murder victim. Nice…

  7. PoPl ( o )~( o ) ck ! Says:

    Yup, you finally got something right.

  8. "reg" Says:

    Great commentary. No wonder your co-workers are in awe.

  9. PoPl ( o )~( o ) ck ! Says:

    Yup, your up two!

  10. Cobb Says:

    It is not a far cry for anyone thinking about the impetus behind Jamiel’s Law (repeal of Special Order 40) to also be in favor of increasing the LAPD commitment to 287(g) which is the federal provision for cooperation between the LAPD and ICE. It’s really that simple. It just so happens that the first person to coin the term had a simple and modest goal. The complexities of the reality requires commensurate complexities in the movement. So I for one would appreciate if people stop saying Jamiel’s Law is stupid, because we knew this six weeks ago.

    It is absurd to suggest that gangbangers had probable cause to question Shaw’s gang allegiance if that same broad license isn’t granted to the LAPD.

  11. Woody Says:

    If people are in the U.S. illegally, be they subversive communists, Illinois Nazis, Islamic terrorists, or Mexicans, be sure not to ask them about their status because we don’t want them to be afraid or offended. Right. The best solution to the problem isn’t to accomodate illegals but get them back on the right side of the border and make sure that they stay there with proper enforcement.

  12. WBC Says:

    Alonso’s assertion that only 5-10% of gang membership is made up of illegals is more than debateable, just looking at the fact that 25-33% of those in jail are illegal, and Diane Feinstein’s own gang report of 2003 put that nunber at 60%. His own former gang affiliation is Hispanic as is his background, so intentionally or not, that may bias him. Still, it’s undeniable that black gangs have been around for decades and no one who supports deporting illegal gangmembers argues that: just that if we deport this element, there would be more resources to go after the rest, and the significant racial tensions we have now between gangs would be lessened. (Just look at the Hispanic-black brawl that shut down Locke, and try to deny that racial tensions are a huge issue. No doubt some of the instigators were affiliated with gangs already, or wanna-be’s; the Times said it was started by tagging crews, which by nature work on behalf of local gangs.)

    I’ve heard these sorts of allegations about Jamiel, they’re all over the blogs; another version is that he was wearing a red Spider Man backpack when he was shot, and that he’d been seen in a school football uniform which included red. I’ve also heard reports of his MySpace comments which were later removed, and allegations that the DA prosecuting the case told Shaw Sr. that Jamiel could be branded a gangbanger by the defense based on these factors, even though he wasn’t.

    BUT he wasn’t in a gang database, and Alonso’s allegations that Jamiel typifies many of the kids who are, just by virtue of tangential relationships as noted, is false, a convenient claim by the families of gangbangers. The letter from Dep. Chief Michel Moore that I posted last week, about the gang injunction he and the CA issued for the San Fer’s in the Valley, makes clear that associating with gangmembers who are on the street and one has to be civil to (you don’t diss a violent gangmember) or you play sports with, is carefully factored out of who gets on the list of gangbangers. However, gangbangers on the list apparently shouldn’t hang out with each other at all, one of the penalties they pay.

    Your characterization of Zine (and by association the entire cops’ union, the Protective League, which supports his motion) and calling common-sense laws to deport illegals on the list of known gang members, is extremely offensive to me and many others. Who in their right mind could think that their “rights” to be in this country, when they’re foreign nationals, trumps those of victims or our immigration laws? Many cops have said again and again, that under the current interpretation of the law, anyone who actually asks about legal status even when they’ve apprehended a suspected gang member who has a rap sheet, is committing “career suicide,” unless maybe it’s in the West Valley. The way Bratton calls those who want to deport illegal gangbangers like this, “immigration haters,” as though there were no distinction being made between illegal immigrants in general, and illegal gangbangers and criminals, reflects that mentality.

    If anything, Jamiel’s Law as written doesn’t go far enough, in that it only requests deportation for illegal gangmembers but not all known felons. For example, it wouldn’t cover the case of Pedro Ortiz, arrested last week and written up in the L A Times profile, as an illegal who’d been in jail several times for felonies like possession of assault weapons and dealing drugs, and deported and returned at least once.

    But this time he was arrested for molesting a 6-yeara old girl, under the guise of fixing her bike, and tried to do the same to her 3-year old sister. This wasn’t the first time: the Times says he had an MO of renting a place near a chosen victim, befriending her, assaulting and raping her, then moving on. Under a number of aliases so it was hard to find him. Gee, it sure is insane and racist of anyone who thinks this guy should be sent back to HIS country, in this case Mexico, and have them pay to jail him for life.

  13. Celeste Fremon Says:

    “Gee, it sure is insane and racist of anyone who thinks this guy should be sent back to HIS country, in this case Mexico, and have them pay to jail him for life.”

    Of course we want the Pedro Ortiz’s of the world deported, and the existing law provides for it.

    And any police officer who spotted him and knew his history is not only permitted to call ice, he or she is required to do so. The fact that this isn’t clear to the officer on the street, is a training issue, not a legal issue.

    I happen to like Dennis Zine. I simply don’t agree with him on this issue, because I believe the changes he suggests wouldn’t play out, in practice the way we think it will, in theory.

    If the jails were better doing their jobs in determining the immigration status of those arrested, it would be a good thing. I think we can all agree on that.

    Let’s enforce the regulations we have before we start changing them.

    By the way, I’m not in any way suggesting that Jamiel Shaw was gang affiliated. I suspect that he may have been targeted because he was friends with gang members. I’ve only known this to happen a hundred times, where good kids who’ve stayed out of gangs, have grown up with boys who went the other direction. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that a lifetime of friendship blows away because one kid makes sad, bad choices. So sometimes outsiders assume that the good kid is affiliated with a gang because of neighborhood friendships, when he/she isn’t at all.

    To me, the idea that the shooter mistook Jamiel Shaw for a gang member, is a more logical explanation—simply based on nearly two decades of observation of such patterns—than the killer simply shot the first black kid he saw.

    Listen: anything’s possible. The killer was, by definition, not behaving logically. But one scenario is, to me, more likely than the other.

  14. WBC Says:

    As for jails doing a better job determining the immigration status of those arrested: That would require something sensible like sharing of info across departments and municipalities. In this case, Espinoza WAS on the LAPD gang list, and they apparently had his illegal status too; IF they didn’t, that’s a failure of POLICY, info that SHOULD be on anyone’s rap sheet.

    But this wasn’t shared with the Sheriff’s dept., which oversaw the Culver City jail he was in, which like most, is a COUNTY jail; so when Espinoza was questioned upon release by both the Sheriff’s office AND ICE (which DID take place, according to the Times — although they’ve also reported that ICE has only TWO officers for all the jails, allowing them to evaluate just 12% or so of all inmates released, the ones where there’s reason to suspect status), claimed he was born in the U. S., and that was it, unbelievably.

    (IF the Sheriff’s office and City Attorney have their own lists of gang members, with illegal status if known, and they’re not playing nice and sharing, they should too, of course — I can’t see any reasons where confidentially would trump the benefit of getting them off the streets.)

    LAPD won’t even share its list of known gang members with its own cops not assigned to gang detail, so they can’t run a check on apprehended suspects. This also makes no sense, and is a failure of policy. Bratton loves to boast about how computer-savvy he is, with CopCom (I THINK it’s called, I’d have to check), so he’s certainly capable of using this data to ID illegal gang members and criminals if he wanted to. IF there’s a concern about releasing the list to beat cops in general, they could just ask some authorized person at the station to verify status of that one suspect, without their seeing all the names. (Although I don’t see why LAPD wouldn’t trust cops with this info, since they’re authorized to run total checks on you and me.)

    As cops have stated again and again, usually anon. to reputable reporters or in blogs like “Ofc. Jack Dunphy,” although SP40 would allow cops to try to verify illegal status and gang membership of those stopped for cause, they feel it’s “career suicide” and “too politically volatile” to actually do so. Bratton claims that he’ll “retrain” the cops including putting Zine first on the list, but has never come out and encouraged them to follow the law and question suspects about illegal status or take steps to verify it; there’s still a strongly tacit discouragement.

    To question gangmembers known to cops to be trouble on the streets about their illegal status, as Zine wants, is strictly taboo.

    Then ICE admits that it hasn’t had the capacity to share its data on known illegals, including those apprehended returning to the U. S. after being deported, with law enforcement around the country. (They also clearly don’t have a reliable way to ID these people AT the border before they infiltrate the country — something McCain claims he’d want to work on.) It’s the most dangerous repeat felons like drug dealers, who know and take advantage of this. Since illegal re-entry after deportation carries an added 20 years to any conviction, it would be a powerful deterrent.

  15. "reg" Says:

    I guess my question is why does to these accusations against Shaw become an issue after the fact – attempting to use some online comments that were clearly written to impress girls to prove gang affiliation. Obviously Shaw was killed because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time – which happened to be his neighborhood, as I understand it. And I think that the notion that race has nothing to do with the targeting of someone who is (likely wrongly) assumed to be a member of a rival gang, when one of the gangs is black and the other Mexican, is a distinction without a difference. Unless the shooter had a beef with Shaw and/or known associates of Shaw’s, I’d have to say that he randomly shot a black kid on the basis of a set of assumptions about gang turf and racial identity. It’s asking a lot to see this as any less vicious or random because of the gang context.

    It seems to me that the reason Shaw is being tagged as a gang member by people like P…”poppycock” or whatever…is to create some sort of smokescreen to deflect a conversation about law enforcement practices that they don’t want to have and to make Shaw seem like he was implicated in the circumstances of his murder. I think this is disgusting. (I know that’s not Celeste’s motive in posting this commentary, of course.) As I said, I pretty much agree that the local police shouldn’t become an arm of ICE for the obvious reasons of maintaining necessary trust and lines of communication in certain communities. I’ll trust their judgement about the drawbacks of aggressive immigration enforcement in the context of routine police work and public safety. But if cops are being told that it’s simply out of bounds to investigate legal resident status in cases where they’ve identified criminal suspects or that it should under no circumstances be used as a means of getting known criminals off the street, we’ve crossed a line into the kind of PC craziness that gives Lou Dobbs and Bill O’Reilly fodder.

  16. "reg" Says:

    ooops…”why do these, etc. etc.”

  17. "reg" Says:

    “any police officer who spotted him and knew his history is not only permitted to call ice, he or she is required to do so. The fact that this isn’t clear to the officer on the street, is a training issue, not a legal issue”

    This doesn’t sound like it’s in line with the policy put forward by the city council and the mayor, according to my interpretation of some earlier threads on this issue. It sounds more like – as in Oakland and SF – it’s against policy to investigate resident status unless a person has already been taken into custody. And if there’s no reliable database post-booking, how could the cop on the street know anything ?

  18. WBC Says:

    I have to actually agree with reg on this, especially 17.

    I’ll agree with Celeste on one thing, that the Shaws are wrong to try to turn this into a “hate crime,” when there’s evidence that it was strictly a gang hit. However, the MySpace issue is a red herring: Espinoza was in jail until the day before for months, there’s no way he could have seen Jamiel’s MySpace account or known what he looked like; his father admits he was wearing a red belt and SpiderMan backpack, which Espinoza took as evidence of being in the P Stone Bloods. YES he should have known better — I can see some find it hard to believe that anyone in that hood could be that naive. Maybe he was, or, was he just tweaking his image a little to try to look cool, precisely because he WAS a good student and jock and hence, probably teased for that, and paid with his life?

    Sure the Shaws would like the “enhancement” that goes with a hate crime (Woody, that’s something where the victim was allegedly targeted for race, sexual or religious orientation), but this gang war has gone both ways. Espinoza just mistook Jamiel for a gangmember.

    There’s even tape of Baca on one of the TV news shows from a month or more back (which I think I referenced at the time), showing him talking to a group of black youths (I don’t recall in what setting), warning them of this gang war, and that LaEme put the hit out on a member of the P Stones in retaliation for another killing, so they should beware. And NOT to wear the wrong colors, as Jamiel did.

    Seems that it’s Baca’s policy to warn possible victims to be cautious, which makes sense to me, whereas Bratton initially denied any gang motivation in this case — remember how he snapped at Leo Stallworth, Earl Ofari Hutchinson, a female editor at Wave, etc. (Saying it wasn’t racial IS technically true, though.) Bratton HAS to get real and stop trying to cover up the problem of racial gang warfare, and the issue of illegal gangmembers.

  19. WBC Says:

    BTW, today’s LATimes article on how LAUSD is failing gifted students (of which I’m sadly aware) gives current enrollment stats by race: Latinos, 72.8%; Black, 11.2%; White, 8.9%; and Asian, 3.7%. So just in sheer numbers and the sudden increase in the last decade, blacks must feel they’re being pushed out of more and more of their neighborhoods, feeling under siege; this is the case at many schools, too, and the Times has reported tensions between black and Hispanic parents over this, too: e.g., Hispanics often want to conduct meetings in Spanish, demand curricula “culturally relevant” to them, etc. While no individual life of any color or race is worth more or less than another, the black gangs are reported to feel more pressure to “hold on” to their turf.

    In percentages of kids enrolling in GATE/ Gifted programs by race, the Asians are represented at 4X their total numbers, whites by almost 3X, while Latinos just 2/3 and blacks by even slightly less than that (7%). So they haven’t made much headway in the last few decades and feel the Title I funds their community activists scored in the 60′s are now going disproportionately to Hispanics. This all spills over into tensions and violence at schools like Locke, even as young as Middle like at Markham. The overall city population is closer to half Hispanic, but their high birth rate makes their kids almost 3/4 the school population. With Latinos having the much highest birth rates, these stats will be even more skewed; tensions among the poorest segments of population who are stuck in place are inevitable. Our political and law enforcement leaders really have to hold open dialogues about this to tamp tensions.

  20. Lost Resident Says:

    18th gang members from Los Angeles are being arrested all over the country. Does Alex AssAlonso think the L.A. gangs don’t take their drug dealing and crimes national?

    Alonso does not know shit about gangs if he thinks 18th street and Mara Salvatrucha are NOT super gangs. Alonso needs to get his dumb ass to Honduras and El Salvador to talk to the prison guards, residents and local police. I guess Alonso has never heard of the mass killing of people riding in a bus or the beheading of young women to send a mesage to the Honduran president and his “mano dura” policy against these gangs.

    If wonder what Popolock kwons about the influence of mexico style politics on cities like Cudahy and Bellflower. If Poplock knows anything about gangs, he should know how the mexican drug cartels are moving into the U.S., and how are uncontrolled immigration has helped the process. If we want cities like Tijuana just keep allowing everybody and anybody to sneak across the border. Does Polplock know more than a 30yr gang cop like Sgt Valdemar?

    And how many kids who are recent immigrants fall into gangs? I would guess the U.S. has paid back billions in free hospital car and schools to illegal immigrants. Property was cheap back in 1930, hospitals today are damn expensive.

    And a few sumbags are now trying to make the victim of a murder seem as if he deserved it, It’s like Reg said, it like blaming a woamn for provoking a rape by the clothes she was wearing. The kid was walking home and not involved in a gun battle.

  21. Celeste Fremon Says:

    Good points, WBC, in your last post.

    LR, no one, no one no one, is saying that Jamiel Shaw deserved what happened to him, or are in any way trying to make him responsible. Good lord!

    Reg, re: your # 17, this is only if the cop happens to know, anecdotally, frankly.

  22. PoL ( o ) ( o ) ck! Says:

    Yeah, I know as much and even more than the retired Sgt.
    Remember, he is not the only gang and organized mafia eme expert. A handful of his theories have been twisted from the original investigation and historical concept. Again, those facts were revealed to him and provided by a very intelligent officer/agent (which I believe made a stupid mistake of telling him). Rich took it upon himself to turn it around and mix in his personal prejudices against mexican illegals. Again, with all due respect for boooking asshole 30+years, the Sgt is not a perfect man.
    After seeing all the stupid comments and responses made here, its wise that i just stay out of the continue dialogue. There is nothing to gain to listen to people that have zero knowledge of street level movements.
    On a final note, Chief Moore is a idiot – as around…

  23. PoL ( o ) ( o ) ck! Says:

    ask around…

  24. PoL ( o ) ( o ) ck! Says:

    Lost Resident….thanks for comming at me the right way.
    FYI – Cartels have been operating in SouthEast LA and ordering hits since the around the late 1970s. I will not go into details.

  25. WBC Says:

    So I guess Dep. Chief Moore won’t be getting references from gangbangers like the San Fers. Sounds like a recommendation. And he’s managed to cooperate with ICE, unafraid of political pressure. Put the guy in charge of the whole department.

  26. Lost Resident Says:

    If Pop-Eyo makes commets like…
    “Everyone I work with carefully listens to me with great admiration, for telling the truth on whats behind the scenes and curtains.”

    You better expect, to have your comments “admired” and critiqued by us.

    Celeste writes…
    “LR, no one, no one no one, is saying that Jamiel Shaw deserved what happened to him, or are in any way trying to make him responsible. Good lord!”

    I suggest you read a few other blogs, Jamiel Shaw has been smeared on other blogs, I was not refering to any comment here.

  27. omar martinez Says:


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