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	<title>Comments on: The Impossibility of Firing Lousy Schoolteachers &#8211; UPDATED</title>
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	<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2009/admin/the-impossibility-of-firing-lousy-schoolteachers/</link>
	<description>street news, views and stories of justice and injustice</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 23 May 2012 08:04:03 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: The Hunsblog &#187; &#8220;Dammit Jim, I&#8217;m a doctor, not a Deputy Superintendant of Public Instruction&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2009/admin/the-impossibility-of-firing-lousy-schoolteachers/comment-page-1/#comment-146982</link>
		<dc:creator>The Hunsblog &#187; &#8220;Dammit Jim, I&#8217;m a doctor, not a Deputy Superintendant of Public Instruction&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 15:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://witnessla.com/?p=2946#comment-146982</guid>
		<description>[...] we canâ€™t seem to fire any bad teachers. The other side of that coin is our wonderful union, who promotes the status quo [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] we canâ€™t seem to fire any bad teachers. The other side of that coin is our wonderful union, who promotes the status quo [...]</p>
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		<title>By: charter school teacher</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2009/admin/the-impossibility-of-firing-lousy-schoolteachers/comment-page-1/#comment-145526</link>
		<dc:creator>charter school teacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 13:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://witnessla.com/?p=2946#comment-145526</guid>
		<description>Nicolle, I have a hunch that many of those &quot;charter school rejects&quot; were not rejected for legal (California Education Code) reasons. So good for you for welcoming them in, but shame on the educators who take advantage of disempowered students &amp; parents to force out students &quot;because it&#039;s not the right fit&quot; or whatever other euphemism they use for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicolle, I have a hunch that many of those &#8220;charter school rejects&#8221; were not rejected for legal (California Education Code) reasons. So good for you for welcoming them in, but shame on the educators who take advantage of disempowered students &amp; parents to force out students &#8220;because it&#8217;s not the right fit&#8221; or whatever other euphemism they use for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicolle</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2009/admin/the-impossibility-of-firing-lousy-schoolteachers/comment-page-1/#comment-145379</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicolle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 21:09:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://witnessla.com/?p=2946#comment-145379</guid>
		<description>charterschoolteacher- We have welcomed back plenty of charter school &quot;rejects.&quot; In fact, I have actually welcomed back students from the New Tech on our campus! Certainly in South Central, these schools provide good pressure on us. The small class sizes, committed teaching staffs and access to technology really does make a difference. Most of the students who attend charters create a self selected group- with the parent and student buy in necessary for long term success.

Jeff is on its way. These layoffs will drain us of vital staff and force our SLC model to change. The small school model works. I worked with the same student population in New Haven, CT.. It was a public school that had only 400 students. My students ended up going to UConn, Howard, RISD, and other liberal arts colleges. Public school works! Maybe not on the scale of LAUSD....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>charterschoolteacher- We have welcomed back plenty of charter school &#8220;rejects.&#8221; In fact, I have actually welcomed back students from the New Tech on our campus! Certainly in South Central, these schools provide good pressure on us. The small class sizes, committed teaching staffs and access to technology really does make a difference. Most of the students who attend charters create a self selected group- with the parent and student buy in necessary for long term success.</p>
<p>Jeff is on its way. These layoffs will drain us of vital staff and force our SLC model to change. The small school model works. I worked with the same student population in New Haven, CT.. It was a public school that had only 400 students. My students ended up going to UConn, Howard, RISD, and other liberal arts colleges. Public school works! Maybe not on the scale of LAUSD&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: reg</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2009/admin/the-impossibility-of-firing-lousy-schoolteachers/comment-page-1/#comment-145315</link>
		<dc:creator>reg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 15:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://witnessla.com/?p=2946#comment-145315</guid>
		<description>Incidentally Woody, I called you a crackpot because you constantly produced &quot;evidence&quot; here from wingnut websites that have zero credibility and you are incapable of conducting a rational discussion. I called you a homophobe because you express contempt for gay people, use words like &quot;queer&quot;, &quot;fag&quot; and are desperate to deny them equal rights. I called you a racist because you posted racist cartoons and constantly disparage minorities (including some very nasty stuff about my wife, who is your superior in every way imaginable).  You call me &quot;gay&quot; because...you actually think you&#039;re engaged in  some huge put-down, rather than exposing yourself as a very small, bigoted, childish creep. 

You forgot the most telling - I&#039;ve consistently called you a coward because you will never admit error when you&#039;ve been proven wrong.  That may be the ultimate measure of who you are as a &quot;man&quot; - and I use the term loosely, because you come off like someone who never made it past adolescence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incidentally Woody, I called you a crackpot because you constantly produced &#8220;evidence&#8221; here from wingnut websites that have zero credibility and you are incapable of conducting a rational discussion. I called you a homophobe because you express contempt for gay people, use words like &#8220;queer&#8221;, &#8220;fag&#8221; and are desperate to deny them equal rights. I called you a racist because you posted racist cartoons and constantly disparage minorities (including some very nasty stuff about my wife, who is your superior in every way imaginable).  You call me &#8220;gay&#8221; because&#8230;you actually think you&#8217;re engaged in  some huge put-down, rather than exposing yourself as a very small, bigoted, childish creep. </p>
<p>You forgot the most telling &#8211; I&#8217;ve consistently called you a coward because you will never admit error when you&#8217;ve been proven wrong.  That may be the ultimate measure of who you are as a &#8220;man&#8221; &#8211; and I use the term loosely, because you come off like someone who never made it past adolescence.</p>
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		<title>By: reg</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2009/admin/the-impossibility-of-firing-lousy-schoolteachers/comment-page-1/#comment-145312</link>
		<dc:creator>reg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 15:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://witnessla.com/?p=2946#comment-145312</guid>
		<description>&quot;it was quite easy to get your goat over anything regarding race&quot;
  

   Yeah - I despise racists such as yourself.  Truly despise you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;it was quite easy to get your goat over anything regarding race&#8221;</p>
<p>   Yeah &#8211; I despise racists such as yourself.  Truly despise you.</p>
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		<title>By: charter school teacher</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2009/admin/the-impossibility-of-firing-lousy-schoolteachers/comment-page-1/#comment-145304</link>
		<dc:creator>charter school teacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 14:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://witnessla.com/?p=2946#comment-145304</guid>
		<description>Nicole, I worked at Jefferson a few years back. We did have a nearly 60-point API gain one year. The following year, district officials directed the school to remove almost all of the supports (&amp; corresponding funding) that had been put in place leading up to the jump. You can imagine what happened to the API the year after that. So you are right --good things are possible anywhere. But sadly, large, dysfunctional systems have a strange way of strangling themselves slowly sometimes.

Pokey, I think one caveat of having all of LAUSD &quot;go charter&quot; would have to include stipulations that the schools take on the responsibility of accepting or finding placement for every student in their attendance boundaries regardless of age, academic history, &amp; time of year they are entering. Also, parents really have to know their legal rights in regards to enrollment &amp; retention of their children or those rights can be quite blatantly violated. I&#039;m not sure how to &quot;systemize&quot; that. I think if you have people at the helm of the schools who value the rights of all parents, regardless of educational or ethnic background, that&#039;s a start. Of course, that is not always the case in &quot;regular&quot; public schools or charter schools. But sometimes it is, and in these cases (surprise!), even students with long histories of failure can &quot;make it.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicole, I worked at Jefferson a few years back. We did have a nearly 60-point API gain one year. The following year, district officials directed the school to remove almost all of the supports (&amp; corresponding funding) that had been put in place leading up to the jump. You can imagine what happened to the API the year after that. So you are right &#8211;good things are possible anywhere. But sadly, large, dysfunctional systems have a strange way of strangling themselves slowly sometimes.</p>
<p>Pokey, I think one caveat of having all of LAUSD &#8220;go charter&#8221; would have to include stipulations that the schools take on the responsibility of accepting or finding placement for every student in their attendance boundaries regardless of age, academic history, &amp; time of year they are entering. Also, parents really have to know their legal rights in regards to enrollment &amp; retention of their children or those rights can be quite blatantly violated. I&#8217;m not sure how to &#8220;systemize&#8221; that. I think if you have people at the helm of the schools who value the rights of all parents, regardless of educational or ethnic background, that&#8217;s a start. Of course, that is not always the case in &#8220;regular&#8221; public schools or charter schools. But sometimes it is, and in these cases (surprise!), even students with long histories of failure can &#8220;make it.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: reg</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2009/admin/the-impossibility-of-firing-lousy-schoolteachers/comment-page-1/#comment-145119</link>
		<dc:creator>reg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 03:24:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://witnessla.com/?p=2946#comment-145119</guid>
		<description>&quot;I think people overestimate what breaking up unions would do for quality in teaching.&quot;

 Ya think ????</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I think people overestimate what breaking up unions would do for quality in teaching.&#8221;</p>
<p> Ya think ????</p>
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		<title>By: apaperbackwriter</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2009/admin/the-impossibility-of-firing-lousy-schoolteachers/comment-page-1/#comment-145055</link>
		<dc:creator>apaperbackwriter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 01:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://witnessla.com/?p=2946#comment-145055</guid>
		<description>&quot;Still, as an outsider, that speaks to the problem of the unions too. In nearly no other industry would the young talented employees be laid off and the burnouts retained.&quot;

Writing about the issues with unions and the issues with layoffs at kind of unnerves me. There is a nuanced article to be written about where these two issues collide -- because they do -- but I always feel like it&#039;s two sides speaking over one another&#039;s heads. 

I happen to work in a nonunionized sector of an industry (journalism!) where people are being laid off. Here, we gripe about the older, better-paid, more experienced reporters being laid off in favor of young, inexperienced (maybe one day talented) but ultimately cheaper reporters.

Not having unions didn&#039;t save quality here -- I don&#039;t know if it would have helped or hindered in our newsroom.

Unions do affect quality, because they affect hiring and firing practices, but I think people overestimate what breaking up unions would do for quality in teaching. This idea that you can either have unions or quality is a false dichotomy and I wouldn&#039;t want to be caught arguing for one side over another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Still, as an outsider, that speaks to the problem of the unions too. In nearly no other industry would the young talented employees be laid off and the burnouts retained.&#8221;</p>
<p>Writing about the issues with unions and the issues with layoffs at kind of unnerves me. There is a nuanced article to be written about where these two issues collide &#8212; because they do &#8212; but I always feel like it&#8217;s two sides speaking over one another&#8217;s heads. </p>
<p>I happen to work in a nonunionized sector of an industry (journalism!) where people are being laid off. Here, we gripe about the older, better-paid, more experienced reporters being laid off in favor of young, inexperienced (maybe one day talented) but ultimately cheaper reporters.</p>
<p>Not having unions didn&#8217;t save quality here &#8212; I don&#8217;t know if it would have helped or hindered in our newsroom.</p>
<p>Unions do affect quality, because they affect hiring and firing practices, but I think people overestimate what breaking up unions would do for quality in teaching. This idea that you can either have unions or quality is a false dichotomy and I wouldn&#8217;t want to be caught arguing for one side over another.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicolle Fefferman</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2009/admin/the-impossibility-of-firing-lousy-schoolteachers/comment-page-1/#comment-144702</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicolle Fefferman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 12:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://witnessla.com/?p=2946#comment-144702</guid>
		<description>We don&#039;t need charter schools. What we need is the financial and pedagogical support of our district. My school has been broken up into four Small Learning Communities. It has helped immensely. The universe is much smaller for these kids and for us teachers. Everyday I am interacting and assisting students from this year and the past three years. They know me, know I can help (with everything except for Geometry) and this has created a while new dynamic at our school. I help students apply for college, let them print out papers and just listen with a sympathetic ear.

Our API score went up almost 60 points last year. If we could just get the support we need- we would be kicking ass and taking names. 

Instead of giving us what we need- we are getting RIFs and budget cuts. My students would thrive with the appropriate resources and supported teaching. 

FYI, I have been in correspondence with Jason Song. He said that the timing of the article was purely coincidental..... and he offered to speak with me- at some point- about RIFs. We will see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We don&#8217;t need charter schools. What we need is the financial and pedagogical support of our district. My school has been broken up into four Small Learning Communities. It has helped immensely. The universe is much smaller for these kids and for us teachers. Everyday I am interacting and assisting students from this year and the past three years. They know me, know I can help (with everything except for Geometry) and this has created a while new dynamic at our school. I help students apply for college, let them print out papers and just listen with a sympathetic ear.</p>
<p>Our API score went up almost 60 points last year. If we could just get the support we need- we would be kicking ass and taking names. </p>
<p>Instead of giving us what we need- we are getting RIFs and budget cuts. My students would thrive with the appropriate resources and supported teaching. </p>
<p>FYI, I have been in correspondence with Jason Song. He said that the timing of the article was purely coincidental&#8230;.. and he offered to speak with me- at some point- about RIFs. We will see.</p>
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		<title>By: Pokey</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2009/admin/the-impossibility-of-firing-lousy-schoolteachers/comment-page-1/#comment-144482</link>
		<dc:creator>Pokey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 03:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://witnessla.com/?p=2946#comment-144482</guid>
		<description>Charter School Teacher,

I agree with you that there are a lot of ways to game the system.   

But if all of LAUSD was required to be ALL charter schools, it might be possible for example to pay more per student to take the tougher cases, special needs etc.   This would game the system to harder for those who need it.

It is not impossible to put (financial and other) incentives into the system to help the kids that are struggling and improve every childs education.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charter School Teacher,</p>
<p>I agree with you that there are a lot of ways to game the system.   </p>
<p>But if all of LAUSD was required to be ALL charter schools, it might be possible for example to pay more per student to take the tougher cases, special needs etc.   This would game the system to harder for those who need it.</p>
<p>It is not impossible to put (financial and other) incentives into the system to help the kids that are struggling and improve every childs education.</p>
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