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	<title>Comments on: The Mother of All Education Reports</title>
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		<title>By: homeschool</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2007/admin/a-quick-weekend-six-pack-from-the-mother-of-all-education-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-193832</link>
		<dc:creator>homeschool</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nonetheless, unfortunately we have places in the world, where not everyone has an chance to obtain this formal type of education. The opportunities which are provided are greatly limited. Occasionally you will discover not enough resources to supply schooling. Furthermore due to the fact parents want their kids to aid them work in factories, have odd jobs, or just do farm work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nonetheless, unfortunately we have places in the world, where not everyone has an chance to obtain this formal type of education. The opportunities which are provided are greatly limited. Occasionally you will discover not enough resources to supply schooling. Furthermore due to the fact parents want their kids to aid them work in factories, have odd jobs, or just do farm work.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2007/admin/a-quick-weekend-six-pack-from-the-mother-of-all-education-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-166907</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 15:57:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Aron</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2007/admin/a-quick-weekend-six-pack-from-the-mother-of-all-education-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-145926</link>
		<dc:creator>Aron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 18:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: professor x</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2007/admin/a-quick-weekend-six-pack-from-the-mother-of-all-education-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-161</link>
		<dc:creator>professor x</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Mar 2007 03:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It&#039;s all about case management. Urban schools need to edcuate &quot;the whole child&quot; -- not just at the elementary level but all the way up until that college acceptance letter (and appropriate financial aid) is in hand. And to do that effectively, urban schools really need to focus on serving not just students but families. And to do that, well, that takes small classes, incredibly dedicated and talented staff at all levels, articulation with social services, and a heck of a lot more money for all the enhancements that people have advocated for elsewhere in this blog. I know, I know, it sounds impossible. But one first step toward getting might be educating urban parents on what is possible in a school and empowering them to organize themselves to demand that their kids&#039; school have the resources and personnel to pull that dream off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s all about case management. Urban schools need to edcuate &#8220;the whole child&#8221; &#8212; not just at the elementary level but all the way up until that college acceptance letter (and appropriate financial aid) is in hand. And to do that effectively, urban schools really need to focus on serving not just students but families. And to do that, well, that takes small classes, incredibly dedicated and talented staff at all levels, articulation with social services, and a heck of a lot more money for all the enhancements that people have advocated for elsewhere in this blog. I know, I know, it sounds impossible. But one first step toward getting might be educating urban parents on what is possible in a school and empowering them to organize themselves to demand that their kids&#8217; school have the resources and personnel to pull that dream off.</p>
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		<title>By: richard Locicero</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2007/admin/a-quick-weekend-six-pack-from-the-mother-of-all-education-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-158</link>
		<dc:creator>richard Locicero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Celeste it is probably a chicken or egg kind of thing but everyone wants better teachers and, I suspect, even members of the Teacher&#039;s union want to weed out the bad ones. But when you blamed for everything it isn&#039;t hard to understand the defensiveness there.It is a natural reaction. Look at the Police Union. Hell, look at the State Bar. Remember when they tried to ban lawyer jokes? A survey by CALIFORNIA LAWYER showed that 2/3 of those surveyed said they&#039;d go into another profession if they had a chance to do it over again and lawyers get a lot more income and public respect than teachers.

Honestly, I don&#039;t have an idea how you get dedicated people to go into the worst schools and try to make a difference. &quot;Teaach For America&quot; is a great idea but they have an apalling drop-out rate. Trouble is &quot;Mr Holland&quot; and &quot;Mr Chips&quot; are fiction. And reality can really bite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Celeste it is probably a chicken or egg kind of thing but everyone wants better teachers and, I suspect, even members of the Teacher&#8217;s union want to weed out the bad ones. But when you blamed for everything it isn&#8217;t hard to understand the defensiveness there.It is a natural reaction. Look at the Police Union. Hell, look at the State Bar. Remember when they tried to ban lawyer jokes? A survey by CALIFORNIA LAWYER showed that 2/3 of those surveyed said they&#8217;d go into another profession if they had a chance to do it over again and lawyers get a lot more income and public respect than teachers.</p>
<p>Honestly, I don&#8217;t have an idea how you get dedicated people to go into the worst schools and try to make a difference. &#8220;Teaach For America&#8221; is a great idea but they have an apalling drop-out rate. Trouble is &#8220;Mr Holland&#8221; and &#8220;Mr Chips&#8221; are fiction. And reality can really bite.</p>
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		<title>By: Celeste Fremon</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2007/admin/a-quick-weekend-six-pack-from-the-mother-of-all-education-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-157</link>
		<dc:creator>Celeste Fremon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Richard, I quite agree with you about the urgent necessity of valuing---and paying---teachers.  On the other hand, while the starting pay for a rookie prison guard is higher than most experienced high school teachers, there is still an enormous problem with getting rid of bad teachers.  I hear this over and over and over again from the great and dedicated teachers and school administrators.  Certainly teachers need and deserve union protection against the firing whims of administrators, but in the state of California that protection has now moved from productive to over-the-top obstructive.  Everybody working in or reporting on California education has a list of truly god-awful stories regarding teachers kept in schools when, in any other profession (except maybe law enforcement and....you know....politics) that person would be long GONE---and deservedly so.  In LA, the union (UTLA) simply recoils at any kind of accountability on the part of teachers.  And itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s simply no longer okay.

 (BTW, I understand from a friend reporting on it that there may be a lot more to that story of the two charter school teachers, and that the LA Times took the easy route and didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t dig deeper.  But I havenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t reported on it myself so I canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t say for sure)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, I quite agree with you about the urgent necessity of valuing&#8212;and paying&#8212;teachers.  On the other hand, while the starting pay for a rookie prison guard is higher than most experienced high school teachers, there is still an enormous problem with getting rid of bad teachers.  I hear this over and over and over again from the great and dedicated teachers and school administrators.  Certainly teachers need and deserve union protection against the firing whims of administrators, but in the state of California that protection has now moved from productive to over-the-top obstructive.  Everybody working in or reporting on California education has a list of truly god-awful stories regarding teachers kept in schools when, in any other profession (except maybe law enforcement and&#8230;.you know&#8230;.politics) that person would be long GONE&#8212;and deservedly so.  In LA, the union (UTLA) simply recoils at any kind of accountability on the part of teachers.  And itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s simply no longer okay.</p>
<p> (BTW, I understand from a friend reporting on it that there may be a lot more to that story of the two charter school teachers, and that the LA Times took the easy route and didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t dig deeper.  But I havenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t reported on it myself so I canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t say for sure)</p>
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		<title>By: Celeste Fremon</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2007/admin/a-quick-weekend-six-pack-from-the-mother-of-all-education-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-156</link>
		<dc:creator>Celeste Fremon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hey, Pokey, at least I see you&#039;re doing some reading, which I fear is more than too many lawmakers will do.

But as for interpretation, you have to read a little more. Yeah, in more affluent areas the scores are better. Gee. How surprising.  The schools in richer areas have more resources, more AP classes,  more student aids to help teachers in elementary schools, more fully credentialed teachers, an adequate supply of books....yadda, yadda, yadda.  The list is long.  Some of this is due to the fact that in, the upper income neighborhoods, parent organizations that are very active in raising money to answer their schools&#039; needs.    But the report---and any kind of anecdotal observation gathered by those of us who&#039;ve reported on schools---detailed widespread inequality of allocation of resources across big school districts like LAUSD.  (The researchers also pointed out that some schools have been neglected for so long that theyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re going to need more money right now to get to the starting line.)

Added to the inequality of resources, is the fact that lots of poor kids, like it or not, live in chaotic, stressed out households---and neighborhoods--- that are not conducive to success at school.  Many of those kids are amazing and succeed anyway, but it&#039;s an uphill swim. We can sit around and blame parents and/or the poor communities all we want, and that gets us where exactly?  There are more productive approaches to take than simply placing blame.

As commenter Professor X said earlier, when poor parents are brought into the process within a smaller school structure, suddenly and miraculously they become involved parents---and their kids do better.  Most parents who cross the border from Mexico---legally or no---will tell you they come for two reasons:  better jobs AND better opportunities for their kids.  They donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t uproot themselves and take incredible risks because they donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t care about their kidsÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ education. When there is genuine outreach to the parents on the part of an enlightened school administration, this becomes entirely clear.  This is why Connie Rice, in her gang report, says that if we are to keep kids out of the street, the schools have to be integrated into the ecology of a community.  They canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t continue to operate as separate ivory tower entities that look at the communityÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s problems and say, Ã¢â‚¬Å“Not Our Fault/Not our problem.Ã¢â‚¬Â  Fault isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t the issue.  WeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re all in this together.  Until we figure that out as a culture, problems like failing schools and overcrowded prisons will continued to seem Ã¢â‚¬Å“unsolvableÃ¢â‚¬Â and somebody elseÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s fault.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, Pokey, at least I see you&#8217;re doing some reading, which I fear is more than too many lawmakers will do.</p>
<p>But as for interpretation, you have to read a little more. Yeah, in more affluent areas the scores are better. Gee. How surprising.  The schools in richer areas have more resources, more AP classes,  more student aids to help teachers in elementary schools, more fully credentialed teachers, an adequate supply of books&#8230;.yadda, yadda, yadda.  The list is long.  Some of this is due to the fact that in, the upper income neighborhoods, parent organizations that are very active in raising money to answer their schools&#8217; needs.    But the report&#8212;and any kind of anecdotal observation gathered by those of us who&#8217;ve reported on schools&#8212;detailed widespread inequality of allocation of resources across big school districts like LAUSD.  (The researchers also pointed out that some schools have been neglected for so long that theyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re going to need more money right now to get to the starting line.)</p>
<p>Added to the inequality of resources, is the fact that lots of poor kids, like it or not, live in chaotic, stressed out households&#8212;and neighborhoods&#8212; that are not conducive to success at school.  Many of those kids are amazing and succeed anyway, but it&#8217;s an uphill swim. We can sit around and blame parents and/or the poor communities all we want, and that gets us where exactly?  There are more productive approaches to take than simply placing blame.</p>
<p>As commenter Professor X said earlier, when poor parents are brought into the process within a smaller school structure, suddenly and miraculously they become involved parents&#8212;and their kids do better.  Most parents who cross the border from Mexico&#8212;legally or no&#8212;will tell you they come for two reasons:  better jobs AND better opportunities for their kids.  They donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t uproot themselves and take incredible risks because they donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t care about their kidsÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ education. When there is genuine outreach to the parents on the part of an enlightened school administration, this becomes entirely clear.  This is why Connie Rice, in her gang report, says that if we are to keep kids out of the street, the schools have to be integrated into the ecology of a community.  They canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t continue to operate as separate ivory tower entities that look at the communityÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s problems and say, Ã¢â‚¬Å“Not Our Fault/Not our problem.Ã¢â‚¬Â  Fault isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t the issue.  WeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re all in this together.  Until we figure that out as a culture, problems like failing schools and overcrowded prisons will continued to seem Ã¢â‚¬Å“unsolvableÃ¢â‚¬Â and somebody elseÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s fault.</p>
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		<title>By: Woody</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2007/admin/a-quick-weekend-six-pack-from-the-mother-of-all-education-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-155</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:12:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://witnessla.com/root/2007/admin/a-quick-weekend-six-pack-from-the-mother-of-all-education-studies/#comment-155</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Ã¢â‚¬Å“Students of Poor Parents do PoorlyÃ¢â‚¬Â&lt;/i&gt;

Let&#039;s reword that.  

&lt;i&gt;Students will be less successful in education if the genes affecting their learning ability come from poor parents who are poor because they are stupid.&lt;/i&gt;  

Short of sterilizing stupid people, the obvious solution is to have different types of schools and goals for those kids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Ã¢â‚¬Å“Students of Poor Parents do PoorlyÃ¢â‚¬Â</i></p>
<p>Let&#8217;s reword that.  </p>
<p><i>Students will be less successful in education if the genes affecting their learning ability come from poor parents who are poor because they are stupid.</i>  </p>
<p>Short of sterilizing stupid people, the obvious solution is to have different types of schools and goals for those kids.</p>
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		<title>By: richard locicero</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2007/admin/a-quick-weekend-six-pack-from-the-mother-of-all-education-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-152</link>
		<dc:creator>richard locicero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:57:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://witnessla.com/root/2007/admin/a-quick-weekend-six-pack-from-the-mother-of-all-education-studies/#comment-152</guid>
		<description>&quot;Control over the hiring and firing of teachers&quot; 
You mean like that charter school in LA that fired two teachers after they complained against the policy of the Principal that teaching 5th and 6th graders about Emmet Till would be inappropriate since Till was accused of &quot;Sexually Harrassing&quot; a white girl? Think that place will be attractive to talented pedagogues?

&quot;Shows essentially no relationship between funding and student outcomes.&quot;
Oh really? So the fact that they spend more per capita in Beverly Hills or Irvine has nothing to do with their success rates? Jonathon Kozol likes to say that when he hears that from people who live in the suburbs around NYC he responds, &quot;Funny, it seems to work fine in your District!&quot;

&quot;Students of Poor Parents do Poorly&quot;
Alert the media! And, as late as 1960 a majority of Americans did not have a HS Diploma. Yes, I&#039;m sure that 
ESL is one of the difficulties but I put it to you that the evidence may suggest that it probably means poor districts need more resources and that means more money.

There is no doubt that reforms have to go along with funding but I find it interesting that these indices all seem to coincide with Prop 13 and that when I was in public schools here (and not in an affluent district but a working class area in SE LA County) the state&#039;s per pupil spending was in the top five in the country. 

(BTW the top most of those years was Utah. Guess the Mormons knew that you had to spend a buck or two)

Of course when I was in school we had a pool of very talented people whose optionds were pretty much limited to teaching if they wanted to use their college education. I think they were called &quot;Women&quot;.

Alas those days are gone and it seems strange, to put it mildly, that we treat teachers no better than garbage men (maybe worse actually) and pay starting prison guards (requiring HS Diplomas) more than starting teachers (requiring equivalent of MAs). And we&#039;re surprised that we might get some lemons. 

I&#039;m surprised we get anyone good. No one goes into teaching to get rich. But they shouldn&#039;t have to take a vow of poverty either. And they sure as hell shouldn&#039;t be treated like shit!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Control over the hiring and firing of teachers&#8221;<br />
You mean like that charter school in LA that fired two teachers after they complained against the policy of the Principal that teaching 5th and 6th graders about Emmet Till would be inappropriate since Till was accused of &#8220;Sexually Harrassing&#8221; a white girl? Think that place will be attractive to talented pedagogues?</p>
<p>&#8220;Shows essentially no relationship between funding and student outcomes.&#8221;<br />
Oh really? So the fact that they spend more per capita in Beverly Hills or Irvine has nothing to do with their success rates? Jonathon Kozol likes to say that when he hears that from people who live in the suburbs around NYC he responds, &#8220;Funny, it seems to work fine in your District!&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Students of Poor Parents do Poorly&#8221;<br />
Alert the media! And, as late as 1960 a majority of Americans did not have a HS Diploma. Yes, I&#8217;m sure that<br />
ESL is one of the difficulties but I put it to you that the evidence may suggest that it probably means poor districts need more resources and that means more money.</p>
<p>There is no doubt that reforms have to go along with funding but I find it interesting that these indices all seem to coincide with Prop 13 and that when I was in public schools here (and not in an affluent district but a working class area in SE LA County) the state&#8217;s per pupil spending was in the top five in the country. </p>
<p>(BTW the top most of those years was Utah. Guess the Mormons knew that you had to spend a buck or two)</p>
<p>Of course when I was in school we had a pool of very talented people whose optionds were pretty much limited to teaching if they wanted to use their college education. I think they were called &#8220;Women&#8221;.</p>
<p>Alas those days are gone and it seems strange, to put it mildly, that we treat teachers no better than garbage men (maybe worse actually) and pay starting prison guards (requiring HS Diplomas) more than starting teachers (requiring equivalent of MAs). And we&#8217;re surprised that we might get some lemons. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m surprised we get anyone good. No one goes into teaching to get rich. But they shouldn&#8217;t have to take a vow of poverty either. And they sure as hell shouldn&#8217;t be treated like shit!</p>
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		<title>By: Pokey</title>
		<link>http://witnessla.com/education/2007/admin/a-quick-weekend-six-pack-from-the-mother-of-all-education-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-150</link>
		<dc:creator>Pokey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 15:45:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://witnessla.com/root/2007/admin/a-quick-weekend-six-pack-from-the-mother-of-all-education-studies/#comment-150</guid>
		<description>should be - &lt;i&gt;who were &lt;b&gt;falling&lt;/b&gt; behind.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>should be &#8211; <i>who were <b>falling</b> behind.</i></p>
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